# Conditions in North Korea (some spoilers for The Orphan Master's Son) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039 "2019-06-04T23:29:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/21 "2019-06-05T21:52:00Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Maybe. I feel like if Kim were able to manage a peaceful transition to a merger with the South, he’d be a hero. In fact, when he was first taking power, I figured he’d want to do something like that – he was educated in Switzerland or something and saw how things could be. How can he treat his own people like that? Kim is, essentially, a God-King. His every whim is law. He can do whatever he wants to whomever he wants in North Korea and never ever suffer punishment for it. He has absolute power over everyone in North Korea, and he was raised to believe he was entitled to it. That’s a pretty powerful mindset. He can treat his own people like that because they are, essentially, his property to what he wants with. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/22 "2019-06-05T21:55:27Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > My question is, not advocating it but if Best Leader were assassinated, would it be same shit different day with the second in command, or would it be an immediate desire for unification and change? Same shit different leader. > [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > Is there even a stated second in command there? I doubt it. The current Kim has a record of killing off anyone with even a whiff of being competition to his position. Even who takes over when the Current Leader dies is not certain - it’s nothing so clear-cut as “eldest son”. > [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > Would it matter if the assassination was done by North Korean leaders or foreigners? Probably not. Well, the details of the aftermath would differ, but I think you’d still wind up with a totalitarian state. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/23 "2019-06-05T21:56:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Same shit different leader. > I doubt it. The current Kim has a record of killing off anyone with even a whiff of being competition to his position. Even who takes over when the Current Leader dies is not certain - it’s nothing so clear-cut as “eldest son”. > Probably not. Well, the details of the aftermath would differ, but I think you’d still wind up with a totalitarian state. Thanks- I always wondered if his closest underlings were onboard with what he did and would relish continuing it, or if they know he’s insane, go along with it to stay alive and are more than ready to “tear down the wall” if he died. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/24 "2019-06-05T22:08:58Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > if they know he’s insane, go along with it to stay alive and are more than ready to “tear down the wall” if he died. No reason to oppose the system for most of the ones at the top - even the ones who may be purged on a whim. Like most political systems, there are still haves and have-nots. It’s abjectly terrible for the vast majority, but pretty good for a tiny minority. And that small elite cadre at the top have a lot to lose. As terrible as it is to be at the bottom, at the top they have every incentive to keep things the same and would stand to lose a lot if the NK government collapsed. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/25 "2019-06-05T22:17:30Z")
It’s easy to forget that while the good old DPRK economy is… less than optimal now, it beat South Korea’s until the 1970s-1980s. Just goes to illustrate the potential catastrophic consequences on a national level of incompetent leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/26 "2019-06-05T22:20:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Kim is, essentially, a God-King. His every whim is law. He can do whatever he wants to whomever he wants in North Korea and never ever suffer punishment for it. He has absolute power over everyone in North Korea, and he was raised to believe he was entitled to it. That’s a pretty powerful mindset. > > He can treat his own people like that because they are, essentially, his property to what he wants with. I would imagine that, no matter how absolute his power may be, someone like Kim is perfectly aware of the Sword of Damocles hanging over his head 24/7. All it takes is one assassin’s bullet. So he can’t completely disregard people’s opinions. Trod on the helpless? Sure, but he pisses off various military or governmental factions at his own peril. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/27 "2019-06-05T22:22:12Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Maybe. I feel like if Kim were able to manage a peaceful transition to a merger with the South, he’d be a hero. Unfortunately, there are people within North Korea who would not consider Kim a hero for doing this, and all it takes, again, is one assassin. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/28 "2019-06-05T22:35:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I would imagine that, no matter how absolute his power may be, someone like Kim is perfectly aware of the Sword of Damocles hanging over his head 24/7. All it takes is one assassin’s bullet. So he can’t completely disregard people’s opinions. Trod on the helpless? Sure, but he pisses off various military or governmental factions at his own peril. Well, let’s see… He had the Vice Minister of the Army executed by mortar fire in 2012. In 2013 the Vice Chairman of the National Defense Commission was executed. This was current Kim’s uncle, Jang Song-thaek, and he was as close to a designated second in command as North Korea gets. In addition, his sister, her husband, a nephew, and the nephew’s sons have been executed as well, apparently just for being relations of Jang Song-thaek In 2014 the Deputy Security Minister was executed - reportedly by flamethrower In 2014 the Minister of People’s Armed Forces was executed. In 2017 the current Kim’s half-brother was assassinated by VX nerve poison (he was the eldest son of the prior leader, illustrating that succession is not necessarily by oldest son). Somehow, I don’t think Kim is the one feeling nervous here… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/29 "2019-06-05T23:39:37Z")
Just out of curiosity, who would take over if Kim suddenly keeled over? ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/30 "2019-06-05T23:42:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > it’s nothing so clear-cut as “eldest son”. So who would decide who takes over? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/31 "2019-06-06T00:39:16Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I read an account by a North Korean doctor who escaped across the northern border and, while stumbling around the territory just across the border, came across a bowl of food and immediately stopped to eat it, and it was the best food she’d had in some time. > > Turned out it was _dog food_. She ate a bowl of food left out for a pet in someone’s yard. She said when she found out it was dog food she started to understand just how screwed up North Korea was, that dogs in China ate better than doctors in North Korea. > Pretty much all stories from refugees are like that. Froma a book called [_Nothing to Envy_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_Envy). The “dog food” was just [white rice with meat](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-m&q=%22dogs+in+China+eat+better+than+Doctors+in+North+Korea%22%E2%80%8B.&oq=%22dogs+in+China+eat+better+than+Doctors+in+North+Korea%22%E2%80%8B.&aqs=heirloom-srp..). Another example in the book is a soldier being [awed by fingernail clippers](https://lfb.org/the-north-korean-nail-clipper/). (While searching for a link on that, I found that nail clippers have been banned from import into NK, and figured that Kim did it because of the book. But nope, [it was the “good guys.”](https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-28/nail-clippers,-shovels-banned-under-north-korean-sanctions/9367858)) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/32 "2019-06-12T20:28:53Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Froma a book called [_Nothing to Envy_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_Envy). The “dog food” was just [white rice with meat](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-m&q=%22dogs+in+China+eat+better+than+Doctors+in+North+Korea%22%E2%80%8B.&oq=%22dogs+in+China+eat+better+than+Doctors+in+North+Korea%22%E2%80%8B.&aqs=heirloom-srp..). ) And… so? That’s still a better meal than millions of North Koreans get on an average day. And someone was feeding it to his dog. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/33 "2019-06-12T20:40:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Just out of curiosity, who would take over if Kim suddenly keeled over? Nobody knows, probably including Kim. He tends to kill people who might become his rival, and AFAIK he has no son or heir. I heard it mentioned on the radio the other day that his health might not be good. He is quite obese, and disappeared some time back for six weeks and reappeared walking with a cane. That’s another scenario that does not bode well - Kim dies, and his generals and hangers-on begin a power struggle. One would hope that China and/or South Korea and/or the US has better sense than to get involved in a NK civil war. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/34 "2019-06-12T20:42:53Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And… so? > > That’s still a better meal than millions of North Koreans get on an average day. And someone was feeding it to his dog. “And so” because the original anecdote makes it sound like he was blown away at a bowl full of Purina. “Food is so plentiful outside of NK that we can give people food to dogs,” is a very different narrative than, “Food in NK is so rare that they think dog food is people food.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/35 "2019-06-12T21:55:24Z")
First of all - the doctor was a female Second - even in the US it used to be quite common to feed dogs entirely with scraps of people food (aside from what the dogs could also scavenge). Prepared stuff like Purina products are pretty much post-WWII western world. Having actually read the book from which the anecdote comes, in the original it was pretty damn clear what it was, and while the doctor was blown away by it when she figured out the food was intended for a dog rather than a person. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/36 "2019-06-12T23:52:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > First of all - the doctor was a female > > Second - even in the US it used to be quite common to feed dogs entirely with scraps of people food (aside from what the dogs could also scavenge). Prepared stuff like Purina products are pretty much post-WWII western world. > > Having actually read the book from which the anecdote comes, in the original it was pretty damn clear what it was, and while the doctor was blown away by it when she figured out the food was intended for a dog rather than a person. Awesome. Thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/37 "2019-06-13T15:01:07Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Has anyone done the analysis on whether this is the worst ever, in terms of oppression, information lock, and other conditions? … were other awful regimes as bad? Worse? Hard to compare? Were there any that lasted this long? After reading quite a bit about domestic conditions in North Korea, I do think it’s the most regimented, most totalitarian regime in history. It must also rank as the most stable totalitarian regime in history; it’s been around since 1948, with relatively little change. And the cult of personality around Kim Il Sung is arguably the most extreme. That said, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia (Kampuchea) changed society more radically. They expelled everyone from the cities en masse and sent them to work in the fields. They eliminated the postal service. They eliminated the judicial system. They eliminated money [!]. That regime lasted for just four years. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/38 "2019-06-14T12:55:44Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > My question is, not advocating it but if Best Leader were assassinated, would it be same shit different day with the second in command, or would it be an immediate desire for unification and change? Is there even a stated second in command there? Would it matter if the assassination was done by North Korean leaders or foreigners? From what I know, many people in top positions in North Korea know their system is evil, unproductive and unsustainable. But the options are to either keep the perks of being in charge or be tortured to death in a revolution. This causes the top echelons of leaders to fight to maintain the system. If kim Jong Un dies, the system will continue as is I’m sure. In dictatorships a coup is hard. All branches of the secret police, military and intelligence spy on each other. Getting a unified military coup is not easy. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039/39 "2019-06-14T17:07:38Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > So who would decide who takes over? The last person standing after killing all of those who were in a position to oppose him would decide. If Kim died it would be the night of long knives on steroids. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conditions-in-north-korea-some-spoilers-for-the-orphan-masters-son/835039.md?page=1)