# Condoleeza Rice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023 "2005-06-05T18:33:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/61 "2005-06-07T15:49:28Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > See, I don’t understand this. Don’t most voters vote for a candidate according to how this candidate’s policy position will affect the voter’s life? Why would you vote for someone solely based on their personal appearance/personal life? It’s not as though the average voter is going to have much personal interaction with the putative President. No, most voters vote based on how a candidate makes them feel. If s/he makes them feel safe or feel proud to be an American, etc. You are aware of the studies done for the 2004 election that showed most people agreed with Kerry’s positions in a blind comparison, yet he lost. I think you overestimate people. > [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Go back enough generations and all of our ancestors thought the world was flat. Opinions change over time. True, but people have known the world was round for over 2000 years. We are talking about people who are still alive. There are people still alive who went to segregated schools and saw black people sprayed with hoses. You act as if these people don’t exist. Do you think they have changed? Do you think their kids weren’t raised to think of blacks as sub human? > [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > I submit that the slight damage done by this rumor was the same as would have been done to a candidate having ANY child out of wedlock. Black wasn’t the point. Bullshit. You really can’t be this naive. If this were the case, then there would have been no need to lie about the race of his child. The child is Bangladeshi, why say she is Black if you think that’s not the main point? Why even mention her race? > [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Again, turn a dangerous criminal loose and you’re likely to get some fallout. I don’t think race had anything to do with it. Really? Then why did Lee Atwater express [regret](http://www.gibbsmagazine.com/Deathbed%20Confessions.htm) over the add, and the fact that it played to the worst of America, on his deathbed? > [@](#): > > Lee Atwater, George Bush Senior’s campaign manager and adviser, before his death confessed that one of the things he regretted most was the Willie Horton ads he did for senior Bush to get elected. He said, he knew the ads were racist and that he was playing to the worst of America, but they were so carried away by the moment and the desire to win that anything went. [OR](http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/000147.html) > [@](#): > > Later on, on his deathbed, campaign manager Lee Atwater tearfully confessed that they had played racial politics with those mailings. He begged forgiveness from his many friends in the black community. If it wasn’t racist, then why did Atwater apologize? Horton was a piece of shit, but he was picked mostly because he was black in a successful attempt to scare voters. > [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > From the OP: _“What an exciting election campaign that would be if she ran against Hillary.”_ Their running against each other, and speculation about it, is the theme of this thread. Fair enough. > [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Remember, there are black racists too. To date, they’ve held their noses and voted for the white candidate that they least disliked. White racists might quite likely vote for Condi because she is less objectionable than whatever lefty the Dems put forth. Yes, there are black racists. However, this whole “they held their noses” things is nonsense. Blacks, for the most part, have never had a problem voting for someone white. Whites,on the other hand, have. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/62 "2005-06-07T16:02:20Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Go read the exchange again. **duffer** ’s “dickhead” comment was used in reference to _himself_ > > [/Moderator Mode] Seemed to me that Duffer’s comment was a pretty direct insinuation that brickbacon is the biggest dickhead on the board ie he would be citing him as such to deflect this name from himself. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/63 "2005-06-07T16:06:33Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Yes, interacial dating can still be problematic for a lot of people. But politics isn’t necessarily like that. Do you think it’s an accident that Dave Chapelle trading Powell and Rice to the White Team when he did his “racial draft” skit? The idea behind that might not get them as much support in the Black community as someone who isn’t an “honorary White Person”, but it does make the color line disappear for most Whites. But it is. Explain to me why there have only been 3 blacks senators since Reconstruction? Give me one good reason why this is the case? The point of the Chappelle skit is that black republicans are considered sellouts. It was a joke, that doesn’t necessarily shed light onto any real life issues. The Wu-Tang Clan was drafted by the Asians. What is that supposed to mean? The Blacks took Tiger Woods also, what’s the significance of that? It was a skit, I wouldn’t read too much into it. That doesn’t really mean blacks dislike Black Republicans. I think black people admire Colin Powell immensely. He has been featured in many black magazines and is always mentioned during Black History Month. Rice may not be as well liked. That said, I don’t really think it makes the color line disappear for white people in areas in which they aren’t used to seeing blacks. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/64 "2005-06-07T16:34:39Z")
> [@Eolbo](#): > > Seemed to me that Duffer’s comment was a pretty direct insinuation that brickbacon is the biggest dickhead on the board ie he would be citing him as such to deflect this name from himself. Thank You. **Tomndebb** has a problem with me for some reason, and he makes it obvious when he says stuff like that. I respect his position, but I think many of his warnings are uncalled for. ---
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/65 "2005-06-07T16:36:16Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Many of you are looking at Condi Rice in a vacuum. Instead, look at a race between Ms. Rice and Ms. Clinton. Will a significant number of conservatives jump ship and vote for Hillary? Nay, nay. Will a number that that voted Dem or didn’t vote last time vote for Condi? I think they will. > > IMHO if such a vote was held tomorrow, Condi would clean Ms. Clinton’s plow, easy. I have to laugh at this assertion. Let me ask you this: How does Iraq figure into the equation, for each politician? Let’s see, Clinton voted for the Iraq war, so she can’t be labeled soft on defense, but that’s as far as this issue goes with her. Rice, OTOH, is only one of the main ARCHITECTS of what is turning out to be a quagmire at best, massive fuckup at worst. And Iraq is the issue on which she has “made her bones”, so to speak, and are you really under the impression that America still thinks it was [worth going to war over?](http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2005-05-02-poll-results.htm#iraq) (See question 27, that’s the latest poll I could find.) Again, I say the main reason the GOP would want her is because she’s black and would tweak the Democrats’ noses. It’s not like she’s done anything good in the Bush administration (an increasingly unpopular one, BTW.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/66 "2005-06-07T17:06:41Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > But it is. Explain to me why there have only been 3 blacks senators since Reconstruction? Give me one good reason why this is the case? How many have run? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/67 "2005-06-07T17:29:51Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > True, but people have known the world was round for over 2000 years. We are talking about people who are still alive. **There are people still alive who went to segregated schools and saw black people sprayed with hoses. You act as if these people don’t exist. Do you think they have changed? Do you think their kids weren’t raised to think of blacks as sub human?** (bolding mine) I went to segregated schools. I saw black people sprayed with hoses, so I do know these people exist. And why yes, I DO think they have changed. And why yes, I DO think their kids weren’t raised to think of blacks as sub human. Any other questions? We are not going to agree on this. Assume, if you choose to, that the USA is filled with bitter racists. I know better. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/68 "2005-06-07T17:48:13Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > (bolding mine) > > I went to segregated schools. I saw black people sprayed with hoses, so I do know these people exist. And why yes, I DO think they have changed. And why yes, I DO think their kids weren’t raised to think of blacks as sub human. Any other questions? > > We are not going to agree on this. Assume, if you choose to, that the USA is filled with bitter racists. I know better. Are you saying you were a racist, and have changed over time? I disagree. I can point to several things to prove to you that there are a large number of racist people out there, but I doubt you are willing to listen. There is [housing](http://www.civilrights.org/research_center/civilrights101/housing.html) [discrimination](http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=PRB&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=6253), [loan](http://www.racematters.org/blackspaymorefornissans.htm) [discrimination](http://www.organicconsumers.org/ofgu/USDA110304.cfm), and unfair [drug laws](http://www.aclu.org/DrugPolicy/DrugPolicy.cfm?ID=5040&c=82) to name a few things. I could go on, but I think you get the point. To deny that racism is at play in all of these circumstances is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/69 "2005-06-07T17:53:09Z")
> [@Airblairxxx](#): > > I have to laugh at this assertion. Let me ask you this: How does Iraq figure into the equation, for each politician? Let’s see, Clinton voted for the Iraq war, so she can’t be labeled soft on defense, but that’s as far as this issue goes with her. > > Rice, OTOH, is only one of the main ARCHITECTS of what is turning out to be a quagmire at best, massive fuckup at worst. And Iraq is the issue on which she has “made her bones”, so to speak, and are you really under the impression that America still thinks it was [worth going to war over?](http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2005-05-02-poll-results.htm#iraq) (See question 27, that’s the latest poll I could find.) Laugh if you will! There’s a good chance that Condi wouldn’t carry as much of the political burden of Iraq as say, GWB would if he were running again. Hillary’s got her health care fiasco to tote around as well. I think most people that voted for Bush would vote for Rice. I see the chance for many defectors from Kerry to Condi. But that’s my guess. I didn’t think the Dems would be dumb enough to run Kerry the last time, so that shows ya’ what I know… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/70 "2005-06-07T17:56:42Z")
**brickbacon** and **John Carter of Mars** , I’m sure there will be room for you to disagree, but I am not sure that either of you are claiming the absolute position that you are ascribing to your opponent. **John Carter of Mars** does not seem to be claiming that racism has evaporated and no longer troubles the land; he is pointing out that the absolute and pervasive racism that existed through the 1960s has diminished. **brickbacon** does not seem to be claiming that all (white) American society is exclusively racist, but that there is more racism present in the country than some people choose to believe. You may come closer to an understanding if you do not attempt to attribute beliefs to the other that he does not actually hold. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/71 "2005-06-07T18:00:42Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > How many have run? Good question. I have not been able to find out how many have run or attempted to run. I understand the relevance of that information, but are you really suggesting that blacks haven’t run for political offices in the numbers that would make the 3 senators elected as pathetic as it sounds? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/72 "2005-06-07T18:43:37Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Are you saying you were a racist, and have changed over time? I disagree. If you think you know more about me than I do, rock on! I’m not saying I was ever a bitter, hate-filled racist. Most of my generation were not. We were brought up with certain opinions on race. I’d say that, on January 1st, 1960, I possessed certain racist attitudes and thoughts. By January 1st, 1970 those attitudes and thoughts had changed, as they had for many of my generation. Pleae note: I never said that racism in the USA is non-existent. I said it is not nearly as pervasive as some of you seem to think. I stand by that statement. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/73 "2005-06-07T18:51:04Z")
Upon preview, I see that **tomndebb** is exceeding wise, possessing cognitive powers beyond those of us mere mortals. Point taken. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/74 "2005-06-07T19:06:42Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Are you denying that Americans (as a whole) are racist? What do you base this on? There is plenty of evidence to support the theory that we are. If we are not racist, why have there only been 5 black senators in our country’s entire history? Why only 3 since Reconstruction? What do you base this statistical anomaly on? All of us in the reality base community tend to look at the facts before making up our minds. If slavery, Jim Crow, the KKK, etc. are not enough to convince you that many people in this country don’t like black people, then I don’t know what to tell you. Well, you know…it depends. I certainly wouldn’t deny that HUMANS (as a whole) are racist. And, last I checked, American’s are, in fact (generally speaking), human. So…no…broadly speaking, its undeniable that Ameican’s are racists, being they are humans. So are Europeans, Asian’s, Africans…even those folks in Outer Mongolia are racists. Are American’s MORE racists than other nations? I don’t think so…they just are more fixated on racism (minorities as well as ‘whites’) and its something that is on their mind constantly, sort of like the Germans are fixated on the Holocaust and jews. The whole slavery thing wasn’t exactly a shinning moment in our collective history, and being Americans we are rightfully shamed by that…and of course by the fact that some elements of our nation fought change tooth and nail until fairly recently wasn’t so great either. But you know, times…they are a-changin, and the country has sort of moved on from Slavery and even Jim Crow. What was acceptable before is not acceptable today. When I was a boy, a hispanic male dating (or even showing interest in) a ‘white’ female was enough to get the crap kicked out of you…if not worse. Today, my wife is one of those big breasted nordic types with blonde hair and blue eyes…and no one says shit about it. I own my own company…and the govenor of my state is, gasp, a hispanic. AND, if he plays his cards right he may make a serious run for president…and HE thinks he has a shot at it. Again, I had a whole rant back on this (the whole playing the race card for sympathy and pats on the back annoys the hell out of me these days), but I’m not going to do it. To me its a ridiculous assertion that American’s won’t vote for Condi because she is black (or a woman)…that smacks of elitism or reverse racism. I think America has moved past all that (or, if not, is rapidly moving past it), and that if folks are going to vote for a president, its not because of the color of their skin or their race or religion…its because they buy whatever bullshit said politician is spewing out at any given time. At least, its not a factor with the majority of American’s. Condoleeza Rice certainly could make a run. I don’t think she could win the presidential nomination for the Republicans, not because she is black or a woman, but because I don’t think she is ‘seasoned’ enough yet. However, I DO think she will be on the short list for VP nominations, and I hope to hell she take it. > [@brickbacon](#): > > There is plenty of evidence to support the theory that we are. If we are not racist, why have there only been 5 black senators in our country’s entire history? Why only 3 since Reconstruction? What do you base this statistical anomaly on? Off the top of my head and with nothing to back it up, I’d say class…not race. To run for office pre-supposes a certain level of affluence. Wealth was concentrated among the ‘white folks’ for quite a long time. If only a small percentage of folks who CAN run for office actually TRY and run, then a group of folks who have a wider base of people affluent enough TOO run is going to be disproportionatly represented in US politics. Also, again as a guess, affluent whites also had more connection to the government and more of a tradition of public service than minorities did (I think this is changing). Can you answer me this? How many blacks (or minorities) have RUN for senator since reconstruction? How did they fair? Did many many run and only a few win, or did a few run and a few win? And whichever the case…does this actually tell us anything useful about whether or not American’s will or will not vote for minorities in the US? -XT ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/75 "2005-06-07T21:40:07Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > If you think you know more about me than I do, rock on! > > I’m not saying I was ever a bitter, hate-filled racist. Most of my generation were not. We were brought up with certain opinions on race. I’d say that, on January 1st, 1960, I possessed certain racist attitudes and thoughts. By January 1st, 1970 those attitudes and thoughts had changed, as they had for many of my generation. > > Pleae note: I never said that racism in the USA is non-existent. I said it is not nearly as pervasive as some of you seem to think. I stand by that statement. Sorry, the “I disagree” section was part of a sentence I thought I’d cut out. I understand what you are saying, but I think the fact that Black people today still have trouble getting loans, getting jobs, and finding housing (because they are black) means that racism is still pretty pervasive. These may be minor things to you, but you aren’t the one being discriminated against. Did you read any of the cites I linked to? ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/76 "2005-06-07T21:56:09Z")
[QUOTE=John Carter of Mars] Laugh if you will! There’s a good chance that Condi wouldn’t carry as much of the political burden of Iraq as say, GWB would if he were running again. Hillary’s got her health care fiasco to tote around as well. QUOTE] I don’t think it will serve the Republican party well to bring up the “health care fiasco” from more than 12 years ago, when the Democrats can bring up the Iraqi fiasco from just last week. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/77 "2005-06-07T22:06:58Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Are American’s MORE racists than other nations? I don’t think so…they just are more fixated on racism (minorities as well as ‘whites’) and its something that is on their mind constantly, sort of like the Germans are fixated on the Holocaust and jews. The whole slavery thing wasn’t exactly a shinning moment in our collective history, and being Americans we are rightfully shamed by that…and of course by the fact that some elements of our nation fought change tooth and nail until fairly recently wasn’t so great either. I think it is. Most other countries don’t have such a terrible history of race relations. The fact that you could say people are “fixated” on racism, as if it’s a minor issue is why things don’t change. Did you read the cites I linked to? Does that seem like a minor problem to you? > [@xtisme](#): > > But you know, times…they are a-changin, and the country has sort of moved on from Slavery and even Jim Crow. What was acceptable before is not acceptable today. When I was a boy, a Hispanic male dating (or even showing interest in) a ‘white’ female was enough to get the crap kicked out of you…if not worse. Today, my wife is one of those big breasted Nordic types with blonde hair and blue eyes…and no one says shit about it. I own my own company…and the govenor of my state is, gasp, a hispanic. AND, if he plays his cards right he may make a serious run for president…and HE thinks he has a shot at it. 1. Blacks and Hispanics are viewed differently by society. 2. Interracial relationships have existed for centuries. Even when it wasn’t accepted, people did it and it wasn’t always a huge problem. Besides, my argument isn’t that all Americans are racist, just that enough of us are that it would make the election of a black president very unlikely. Also, do you look Hispanic or do you identify with Hispanic culture? Do you speak Spanish or visit your home country? Just curious. > [@xtisme](#): > > Again, I had a whole rant back on this (the whole playing the race card for sympathy and pats on the back annoys the hell out of me these days), but I’m not going to do it. To me its a ridiculous assertion that American’s won’t vote for Condi because she is black (or a woman)…that smacks of elitism or reverse racism. I think America has moved past all that (or, if not, is rapidly moving past it), and that if folks are going to vote for a president, its not because of the color of their skin or their race or religion…its because they buy whatever bullshit said politician is spewing out at any given time. At least, its not a factor with the majority of American’s. I would love to hear your rant. Either way, I can’t see how your opinion is based on the facts. Black people have a hard time getting a cab in major cities, what makes you think people would vote a black person as president? The cites I linked to show how it’s harder for black people to get loans, housing (in certain areas), etc. Do you think these people, who won’t even interview a black sounding person for a job, will vote a black woman as president? > [@xtisme](#): > > Off the top of my head and with nothing to back it up, I’d say class…not race. To run for office pre-supposes a certain level of affluence. Wealth was concentrated among the ‘white folks’ for quite a long time. If only a small percentage of folks who CAN run for office actually TRY and run, then a group of folks who have a wider base of people affluent enough TOO run is going to be disproportionatly represented in US politics. Also, again as a guess, affluent whites also had more connection to the government and more of a tradition of public service than minorities did (I think this is changing). > > -XT Really, whites have more of a tradition to public service? What do you base this on? Also, plenty of non-affluence people run for office. I doubt that alone could explain the statistical disparity. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/78 "2005-06-07T22:09:07Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Hillary’s got her health care fiasco to tote around as well. Remember, that was a “fiasco” in the same way Bill’s attempt to admit openly gay persons into the military was a “fiasco” – i.e., only in that the Pubs succeeded in scuttling it, not because it was a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/79 "2005-06-07T22:12:49Z")
There are a LOT of people out there who do not consider Iraq a “fiasco”. Didn’t you figure that out from the last presidential election??? ---
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/80 "2005-06-07T22:32:10Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > There are a LOT of people out there who do not consider Iraq a “fiasco”. Didn’t you figure that out from the last presidential election??? > [@](#): > > There are a LOT of people out there who do not consider Iraq a “fiasco”. Didn’t you figure that out from the last presidential election??? Do you not realize that things have changed since November, and not in a good way? Please look at the poll I cited in post #65 before replying. It is fairly clear that the American public is now becoming more disenchanted with Iraq each time a new poll is commissioned. To get back to the OP, if Iraq is still thought of as a disaster when the 2008 election rolls around, can anyone come up with a reason for the group of moderate voters who decide presidential elections nowadays, to vote FOR Condi? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023.md?page=5)