# Condoleeza Rice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023 "2005-06-05T18:33:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/81 "2005-06-07T22:33:28Z")
How the hell did I do that? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/82 "2005-06-07T22:46:26Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I think it is. Most other countries don’t have such a terrible history of race relations. The fact that you could say people are “fixated” on racism, as if it’s a minor issue is why things don’t change. Did you read the cites I linked to? Does that seem like a minor problem to you? Yes, I read your cites…and I was never claiming that there was no racism in the US. Quite the contrary in fact…and I also have first hand knowledge. Let me ask you a question…have you actually ever been to other countries? My own impression of several of the countries (including my home country of Mexico) is that racism is as bad if not quite a bit worse…and more open. There is a whole caste system in Mexico for instance depending on exactly what mix you are between indian, black and spanish blood. Africa is a hot bed of racism, and Europe is as well IMHO, though they will deny it. My trip to Spain was…eye opening, to say the least. I was also not exactly treated with open arms in France (though they thought I was a muslim for some reason…even so, its STILL racism IMHO). > [@brickbacon](#): > > 1. Blacks and Hispanics are viewed differently by society. > 2. Interracial relationships have existed for centuries. Even when it wasn’t accepted, people did it and it wasn’t always a huge problem. 1. True, though probably not as much as you think…especially if we include ‘native American’s’ into the mix as well. I’m not sure where you are from, but being a hispanic, and from Mexico to boot, was no picnic in the south west when I was growing up. Its a world of difference today than it was when I was a boy…stunningly so sometimes. 2. Well, it was a huge problem when I grew up. It amazes me how far we’ve come on this seemingly inconsequential thing. YMMV. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Besides, my argument isn’t that all Americans are racist, just that enough of us are that it would make the election of a black president very unlikely. And I disagree with you…I think that the folks who would vote because of skin color or race are a huge minority. Now…if you want to make the arguement that people wouldn’t vote for Condi on quasi-religious or moralistic grounds (i.e. the abortion issue or the fact she is single perhaps), I might be more agreeable. I just don’t think skin color or even religious affiliation is that important anymore. Again, YMMV and your experiences may be different. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Also, do you look Hispanic or do you identify with Hispanic culture? Do you speak Spanish or visit your home country? Just curious. No worries. I look more like an indian (native American) to most Americans from what I gather (I’ve been told this anyway…though a very dark skinned indian). I’m a mestezo, if you know what that means. Yes, I speak spanish…it was my native language, though I moved to the US when I was quite young. Yes…I visit our old village in Mexico where some of my relatives still live. Not as often as I used too…maybe once or twice a year these days. Most of my family lives in Arizona and California now. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Black people have a hard time getting a cab in major cities, what makes you think people would vote a black person as president? The cites I linked to show how it’s harder for black people to get loans, housing (in certain areas), etc. Do you think these people, who won’t even interview a black sounding person for a job, will vote a black woman as president? I think its less of a problem than your cites make it out to be…i.e. I think that many of those things are isolated instances. When I lived on the east coast there was certainly a hightened sense of race there, and probably a lot more racial type tensions. However, working in the tech field I can say that blacks didn’t seem to be having much trouble getting jobs…and I was certainly not turned down for work. Many of my best friends on the east coast are black and from sitting around and shooting the shit with them (I concede this is not a scientific study) I think most of those things you list are overblown. I certainly don’t recall any of them complaining about not being able to get interviews or loans for housing…quite the opposite in fact. And I certainly never had any trouble with any of those things (though as you pointed out, perhaps US society has a different opinion of hispanics from blacks…I don’t know). > [@brickbacon](#): > > Really, whites have more of a tradition to public service? What do you base this on? Also, plenty of non-affluence people run for office. I doubt that alone could explain the statistical disparity. Than hispanics, certainly (IMHO). What do I base this on? Well, mostly on my own impressions, and partly on a cursory look at history. Why exactly WOULD blacks or hispanics (or Native Americans or Asians) be anything but recently connected to the US government? Whites on the other hand FOUNDED the nation, and have pretty much participated in its governing as a matter of course since its founding. Its only been in the last few decades that hispanics at least have taken a broader interest in governing this country…and only in the past few decades that more hispanic politicians have begun to emerge on the national stage. Perhaps you could explain why you feel I’m wrong and that minorities have been connected to the government and government service? I’m interested in your thoughts on that, as I don’t see it…again, from my own perspective at least. As for the class thing, if you think about the past presidents, how many were not affluent? The only presidents I can think of who came from the ‘lower classes’ are Nixon and Truman off the top of my head…and Truman kind of snuck in via the back door. I don’t know what the ratio is of affluent to poor in the Senate/Congress, or on the USSC, but I’m guessing that most of the folks there come from the upper middle class and higher. Its only been relatively recently that blacks and hispanics have begun to make serious inroads numbers wise on the upper middle/lower upper classes IMO…and so the pool of potential candidates at the national level who actually have a good shot at making Senator/Congressman or President has been smaller than for the whites. THis is changing and I am quite confident that I’ll see a hispanic (or black) in the Whitehouse in my lifetime…in fact, I’m hopeful I’ll see one or the other in the WH (as either president or VP) in the next election. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mrrealtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@mrrealtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrrealtime)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/83 "2005-06-07T22:50:31Z")
A couple of friends in Washington commented to me “Condeleeza Run? No. No one voted for her.” Werent most presidents previously in office before, as governers or mayors or something? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/84 "2005-06-07T23:13:57Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And I disagree with you…I think that the folks who would vote because of skin color or race are a huge minority. Now…if you want to make the arguement that people wouldn’t vote for Condi on quasi-religious or moralistic grounds (i.e. the abortion issue or the fact she is single perhaps), I might be more agreeable. I just don’t think skin color or even religious affiliation is that important anymore. Again, YMMV and your experiences may be different. I think we will have to agree to disagree. I wish I were wrong about this, but I don’t think I am. > [@xtisme](#): > > I think its less of a problem than your cites make it out to be…i.e. I think that many of those things are isolated instances. When I lived on the east coast there was certainly a hightened sense of race there, and probably a lot more racial type tensions. However, working in the tech field I can say that blacks didn’t seem to be having much trouble getting jobs…and I was certainly not turned down for work. Well you may believe the conclusions overstate things, but to say it’s based on isolated instances is false. All the cites mention scientific research studies that could not be based solely on isolated incidents. My question to you is what would it take to convince you that race is a big problem for many people. > [@xtisme](#): > > As for the class thing, if you think about the past presidents, how many were not affluent? The only presidents I can think of who came from the ‘lower classes’ are Nixon and Truman off the top of my head…and Truman kind of snuck in via the back door. I don’t know what the ratio is of affluent to poor in the Senate/Congress, or on the USSC, but I’m guessing that most of the folks there come from the upper middle class and higher. Well it depends on what you mean. Clinton didn’t grow up rich or privileged. Are you talking about how they grew up, or how they were when they were elected? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/85 "2005-06-08T00:08:10Z")
For anyone interested, Condi will be on Hardball on Monday next week. You can be sure Chris will ask her about '08. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/86 "2005-06-08T00:09:03Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Hillary’s got her health care fiasco to tote around as well. Considering how the rising cost of health care is a growing problem for more and more Americans today, she could easily turn this into a plus. “I tried to get health care costs under control over a decade ago, but the Republicans derailed my efforts, and now we’ve got a crisis here. Vote me into office and I’ll lead a renewed charge to rein in the beast.” ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/87 "2005-06-08T00:20:49Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > For anyone interested, Condi will be on Hardball on Monday next week. You can be sure Chris will ask her about '08. You can be equally sure that Condi will not give a direct answer. She’ll say that she’s focused on doing her current job. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/88 "2005-06-08T01:06:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I think we will have to agree to disagree. I wish I were wrong about this, but I don’t think I am. I guess we’ll have to wait and see what turns up in '08. Would you be convinced if Condi is the VP choice? Or if someone like Bill Richardson from NM is the Dems choice? What would convince you? > [@brickbacon](#): > > Well you may believe the conclusions overstate things, but to say it’s based on isolated instances is false. All the cites mention scientific research studies that could not be based solely on isolated incidents. My question to you is what would it take to convince you that race is a big problem for many people. I didn’t notice the ‘scientific research studies part’, but I only skimmed them at work. Let me take a closer look tonight. I may be guilty of looking at things today through the glasses of how things were when I was a kid. It certainly looks a lot better to me today than it did when I was growing up and I may be seeing things rosier than they are, I admit. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Well it depends on what you mean. Clinton didn’t grow up rich or privileged. Are you talking about how they grew up, or how they were when they were elected? Clinton may not have had a golden spoon in his mouth, true…but certainly by the time he ran he wasn’t exactly eating TV dinners in the trailer park either. But you are correct…Clinton was by no means rich growing up. That makes 3 non-rich that became president. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/89 "2005-06-08T01:22:34Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Did you read any of the cites I linked to? Yes. The only one I have any personal knowledge of is the Pigford v. Glickman case, and subsequent events surrounding it. The story you linked to at _The Organic Consumers Association_ misrepresents the facts in several material areas, and could at best be considered uninformed, at worst deliberate muck-raking journalism. The other cites may well be accurate, as far as I know. I don’t have enough personal knowledge to know if they are honest or not. For every instance of racism you can cite, somebody with a fast internet connection could bring up a cite of the govt./populace bending over backwards to right a wrong. I think a black person can get elected POTUS. You don’t. Let’s let it go at that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/90 "2005-06-08T22:31:52Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > The story you linked to at _The Organic Consumers Association_ misrepresents the facts in several material areas, and could at best be considered uninformed, at worst deliberate muck-raking journalism. :mad: Why are you using the term “muck-raking journalism” as a pejorative? The “muckrakers” of the early 20th Century (for whom the term was coined) were true heroes of American journalism! They did what journalists are **supposed** to do – expose wrongdoing! ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/91 "2005-06-09T01:39:10Z")
I think there’s probably a larger percentage of people who wouldn’t vote for Condi due to who she’s associated with than the color of her skin or her gender. Regardless of her evident intellectual accomplishments and abilities, she is a warmongering neo-con Bushite (or something like that). I would love to see a black and/or woman president. There is zero chance I would ever vote for anyone associated with the Bush regime. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/92 "2005-06-09T05:56:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :mad: Why are you using the term “muck-raking journalism” as a pejorative? Because it sounds mucky. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/93 "2005-06-09T05:59:35Z")
> [@rexnervous](#): > > …she is a warmongering neo-con Bushite (or something like that). Good point. We know from experience that those types never win elections, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/94 "2005-06-09T12:05:34Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Good point. We know from experience that those types never win elections, don’t we? My point had nothing to do with whether she could win the election. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/95 "2005-06-12T03:42:47Z")
There are an awful lot of people who think Dr. Rice is overrated. If by some fluke the GOP nominated Dr. Rice, & the Dems nominated Hillary, just to prove that even their no-account, coattail-riding, all-hat-&-no-cattle womenfolk can beat any independent candidate, I’m campaigning for whatever third-party candidate has the courage to be a man & stand up to them. (Yeah, that’s a sexistish remark. Politics is a sexist world. Nominating women when there are so many ambitious & more-experienced men would be an insult to populist opposition.) Even if the only one is Ralph “Hey, there’s my foot! Let’s shoot it!” Nader. Again. And if people fall for the sudden calculation nomination of NEW & IMPROVED FIGUREHEADS! NOW WITH WOMBS! as some sort of cockamamie appearance of change & progress in this country, I am, as I have told people before, swimming to Spain. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/96 "2005-06-12T03:47:35Z")
Let’s try that last sentence again: And if people fall for the sudden nomination of NEW & IMPROVED FIGUREHEADS! NOW WITH WOMBS! as some sort of change & progress in this country, when it would be in fact a calculating strategy to dupe us with the appearance of change, & one of those two women wins; I am, as I have told people before, swimming to Spain. Now, if Carol Moseley Brown ran, I would give her some respect. I don’t think she’s the perfect candidate for the job (who is, really?), but her campaign last year was a breath of fresh air. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/97 "2005-06-14T23:50:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You can be equally sure that Condi will not give a direct answer. She’ll say that she’s focused on doing her current job. I was wrong, No questions at all about her future political ambitions. None. Of course, the airing of the interview had to be put off a day because of the all-important Michael Jackson verdict… It sure would be interesting to see a debate between Condi and Hillary-- two very smart, high achieving women. We’ll probably never see it, though. At least not next time around. I just don’t see Condi as presidential material (yet) and Hillary won’t be #2 on the ticket. Oh, and Condi changed her hairdo-- what a difference!! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/98 "2005-06-15T00:09:20Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > . . . and Hillary won’t be #2 on the ticket. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/99 "2005-06-15T00:30:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why not? Do you think anyone would want her there-- she’d get most of the attention. And she’d be a constant target of the Republicans during an Democratic administration. Also, why should she settle for #2, when she’s the prime candidate for #1? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023/100 "2005-06-15T00:55:21Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Oh, and Condi changed her hairdo-- what a difference!! Cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/condoleeza-rice/307023.md?page=6)