# Confederate Battle Streamers for US Army units **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2022, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880 "2022-08-18T09:01:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/81 "2023-09-10T14:52:15Z")
This issue is part of the larger culture war that Republicans are fighting, which means that _their_ civilian leadership, i.e. their respective state governors, likely have their back. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/82 "2023-09-10T16:14:45Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > _their_ civilian leadership, i.e. their respective state governors, likely have their back. This is an important point. As Guard units, they’re primarily under the authority of their state executive, not the DoD. Even if they are subject to Federal regulations and orders, their ultimate chain of command runs to the governor’s mansion, not the White House, so there’s ample opportunity for resistance. Nationalize those units and the rules change, temporarily, but they have to revert to state command eventually. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/83 "2023-09-10T16:51:37Z")
Apologies to all, I am/was fully aware of how the state vs. federal issues run through these units, but was trying to make a point that our military and paramilitary forces (the whole gamut of our law enforcement services) have become a breeding ground of “mah authoritah” with a heaping helping of seeing anyone who is not in complete deference to it as the enemy. While not complete, it’s become self-selecting and self-supporting, and is fully being used as a political weapon, with ongoing and increasing threats of using it as such. Thus my comments on how far the rot has spread, with this issue being the tiniest of examples. And my heartfelt wish that this be stomped on hard. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/84 "2023-09-10T23:07:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > Units from _West Virginia_? The state that seceded from Virginia because they were loyal to the Union? Hard to see how a West Virginian unit could have a Confederate battle streamer. I mean, at least one obviously does, but that just sound strange. > > I see Confederate flags being flown here in New York. The beliefs that the Confederate flag represents in the 21st century are unfortunately not limited to any one region of this country True, but this is not about Confederate _flags_ being flown by private citizens; this is about Confederate _battle honors_, being flown by official National Guard units. It just seems weird on the face of it for a military unit from West Virginia - a Union state - to have earned a Confederate Army guidon. As @Dissonance pointed out, those units descend from Rebel regiments from the counties that became West Virginia in 1863; but it still seems a little odd. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/85 "2023-09-10T23:25:54Z")
Amazing, all this 21st-century hatred toward 19th-century people to whom loyalty to their state (which no doubt played a much bigger role in their lives) was more important than loyalty to the federation. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/86 "2023-09-10T23:30:59Z")
The federation that was not in favor of slavery, he glosses over. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/87 "2023-09-10T23:43:28Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > As @Dissonance pointed out, those units descend from Rebel regiments from the counties that became West Virginia in 1863; but it still seems a little odd. Everything about Army campaign or battle streamers and unit awards is “odd” to me. None of these “units” as they exist today even fought in the Civil War, in the sense that no single living individual within any unit fought in the war. But in some cases it’s even more ridiculous than that, in that these aren’t always “ship of Theseus” situations where the supposed “unit” has an unbroken history going back over a hundred and fifty years, just with with people changing out over time, but rather that the units are often retired/inactivated for years or decades, and then brought back as a new creation, and the decision to give the, the lineage of an older, no longer extant unit, is purely administrative. > [@SCAdian](#): > > Amazing, all this 21st-century hatred toward 19th-century people to whom loyalty to their state (which no doubt played a much bigger role in their lives) was more important than loyalty to the federation. You’re a fucking idiot at best and a racist piece of shit at worst. Fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/88 "2023-09-10T23:46:50Z")
Amazing, all these 21st-century people thinking they are those 19th-century people. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/89 "2023-09-10T23:49:43Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Amazing, all this 21st-century hatred toward 19th-century people to whom loyalty to their state (which no doubt played a much bigger role in their lives) was more important than loyalty to the federation. Are you on crack? We don’t hate them but we certainly don’t want to honor them. They fought for an evil entity. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/90 "2023-09-11T00:03:51Z")
I’ll save my hate for the racist assholes who want to honor their cause. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/91 "2023-09-11T01:59:20Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Amazing, all this 21st-century hatred toward 19th-century people to whom loyalty to their state (which no doubt played a much bigger role in their lives) was more important than loyalty to the federation. The folks who became West Virginia were loyal to their state. The traitors, however, were just as much traitors to their individual states as they were to the United States as a whole. What they were loyal to was neither their nation nor their state, but to the principle that people are property. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/92 "2023-09-11T02:31:35Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Amazing, all this 21st-century hatred toward 19th-century people to whom loyalty to their state (which no doubt played a much bigger role in their lives) was more important than loyalty to the federation. The Confederate flag stands for so many things; states rights, heritage, opposition to excessive tariffs, hatred of black people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/93 "2023-09-11T09:22:03Z")
No, it’s hatred towards the 20th century white supremacists who revived a dead set of symbols to signify opposition to Civil Rights. That’s what modern usage of the Confederate flag (along with all the monuments) descends from. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/94 "2023-09-11T18:39:31Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > True, but this is not about Confederate _flags_ being flown by private citizens; this is about Confederate _battle honors_, being flown by official National Guard units. That makes it much worse. The Confederates attacked the United States. So any Confederate battle honors are celebrating the deaths of American soldiers. It’s September 11 as I write this. Are any National Guard units celebrating this anniversary by flying Al Qaeda battle honors? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/95 "2023-09-11T19:04:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s September 11 as I write this. Are any National Guard units celebrating this anniversary by flying Al Qaeda battle honors? Hey now. Al Qaeda wasn’t really about terrorism, they were really about nation rights. There were good people on both sides, and the Daughters of Al Qaeda have every right to put up statues in American town squares honoring falling Al Qaeda soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/96 "2023-09-11T19:12:52Z")
Yeah, otherwise, we have no way to remember that history. You don’t want to erase history, do you?? [Edits actual history textbooks to make slavery seem like a good thing…] ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/97 "2023-09-11T19:13:55Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Looking through the first few units doesn’t clarify how and when they became West Virginian units. I assume when SCOTUS ruled in Virginia v West Virgina that WV had legally become its own state. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/98 "2023-09-11T20:01:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That makes it much worse. The Confederates attacked the United States. So any Confederate battle honors are celebrating the deaths of American soldiers Well, yes. That’s the point of the thread, that Army units have been ordered to get rid of their treason streamers. Some now are dragging their feet, which ought to be stamped down, hard. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/99 "2023-09-11T20:07:25Z")
More or less. The case settled the procedural questions around the vote to create West Virginia out of Virginia, not the validity of the state itself. But by endorsing that West Virginia had been formed by the proper legislative consent of all parties involved, it upheld the creation of the state in accordance with the Admissions Clause of the Constitution. > **[Virginia v. West Virginia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_v._West_Virginia)** > > Virginia v. West Virginia, 78 U.S. (11 Wall.) 39 (1871), is a 6-3 ruling by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that if a governor has discretion in the conduct of the election, the legislature is bound by his action and cannot undo the results based on fraud. The Court implicitly affirmed that the breakaway Virginia counties had received the necessary consent of both the Commonwealth of Virginia and the United States Congress to become a separate U.S. state. The Court also explicitl... > **[Admission to the Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admission_to_the_Union)** > > Admission to the Union is provided by the Admissions Clause of the United States Constitution in Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1, which authorizes the United States Congress to admit new states into the Union beyond the thirteen states that already existed when the Constitution came into effect. The Constitution went into effect on June 21, 1788 in the nine states that had ratified it, and the U.S. federal government began operations under it on March 4, 1789, when it was in effect in 11 out of... ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880/100 "2023-09-11T20:10:01Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > which ought to be stamped down, hard. In principal, true. But practically difficult to implement without completing disrupting the balance of authority set up in the legislation about the National Guard. The states have a say, and the feds have relatively little direct recourse when the states are in command of their own Guard formations, which is most of the time. I wonder if this is going to require some lawsuits, DoD versus the troublemaker states. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-battle-streamers-for-us-army-units/969880.md?page=6)