# Confederate flag neither anti-American nor racist, necessarily **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668 "2010-04-28T20:57:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/21 "2010-04-28T23:57:47Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > What symbol of the South could be picked that wouldn’t make people think of racism? If I were going with a “heritage not hate” theme I’d go with the [original Confederate flag](http://www.historical-flag.com/downloads/1st_confederate.gif), which ironically most rebel flag wavers wouldn’t recognize it. (The [second](http://www.flheritage.com/facts/symbols/images/flags/Confederacy_2nd_National.jpg) and [third](http://www.sos.ga.gov/archives/museum/images/flag_1865.jpg)national flags contain the square version of the rebel battle flag.) While I completely understand why anyone would find the rebel flag offensive, I’ll agree that ultimately it means what the waver means like any other symbol be it a cross or a swastika. The most irksome thing to me about all of Alabama’s flag controversies was the lack of historical precedent for it. It wasn’t much off from _The Simpsons_ when a state legislator says “Many people of our state find our incorporation of the Confederate flag into the state flag offensive, particularly since we were never part of the Confederacy”. While Alabama was indeed the birthplace of the CSA government, the rebel flag never flew over the capital until the 1950s. The first national flag did, the Alabama state secession flag (this [two](http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/images/u/us-al61r.gif)-[sided](http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/images/u/us-al61o.gif) number) did which I doubt 1 out of a thousand people in the state would recognize, but not the rebel flag. From histories I’ve read the rebel flag gained popularity starting in the early 1920s. By the mid 1920s it was a symbol of the U. of Alabama football team and was waved by their fans- in addition to being deep south it was also crimson (as in _Crimson Tide_). It was popularly identified as the Confederate flag by GWTW in 1939, most famously appearing in the hospital/trainyards scene (shot to hell), though the First National flag also appears in the movie at the bazaar scene. (Georgia, oddly enough, had no official flag at the time- there were some that were used above government buildings but they weren’t consistent.) Anyway, whoever waves the flag now deserves pretty much any non-violent objection they get, but while some definitely use it for hate I think many really are very naive and truly clueless as to how offensive it is. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/22 "2010-04-29T00:05:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > It wasn’t much off from _The Simpsons_ when a state legislator says “Many people of our state find our incorporation of the Confederate flag into the state flag offensive, particularly since we were never part of the Confederacy”. I see the damn thing screened onto vehicles here in **Canada** , where it makes, like, 1/1000th the sense it does in southern states. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/23 "2010-04-29T00:12:07Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > The problem is there is no other symbol out there to display to say “Hey, I’m from the South!” I have no dog in this fight, but.. this seems pretty sad. Not in a “haha, losers!” way, but in an honest one. There’s really no symbol out there to display to say “Hey, i’m from the South!” other than one connected by a lot of people with racism and slavery? Ouch. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/24 "2010-04-29T00:17:53Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > It’s just a signifier for “the South,” or an even looser one for “rebel.” Other folks have addressed this more substantially, so I’ll just point out my pet peeve: “loose” and “lose” are two different words. Daniel 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/25 "2010-04-29T00:17:59Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > But that doesn’t change the fact that it was used before that as a generic symbol of the South. (The point on which you were _wrong_.) Yes, I was. I may have been thinking of the Alabama flag in particular, since **Sampiro** has discussed that before. It’s true that not everybody who flies that flag is trying to make a racist statement. It’s also true that racists have been using that exact symbol for a long time. You’re saying the flag should be divorced from its origins AND its long-time usage. Do you see where that’s a tough sell? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/26 "2010-04-29T01:09:19Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > I’ve made this point in other threads, but the country has really become (IMO) hyper-sensitive to the Confederate flag over the past three decades. > > In the 70s, and into the 80s the flag was _everywhere_, and no one thought twice about it. It made a regular appearance on a weekly TV show (_The Dukes of Hazzard_). It shows up on a dorm room wall in the movie _Animal House_ (1978), and nobody accused the director of bigoted intent. It was for sale in the form of a patch for your jeans in children’s comic books. Lynyrd Skynyrd toured with a gigantic Confederate flag as their backdrop, and nobody launched protests or thought to mention it in magazine articles. > > The flag was not being displayed in those instances as a symbol of racism, but rather as a symbol of the South (Skynyrd and the _Dukes of Hazzard_), or as a more generalized symbol of rebellion (Animal House and the jean patches). > > From the late 80s forward, people started deciding to get offended by the flag. (Show me a Confederate flag controversy that pre-dates, say, 1985.) > > At this point, the anti-flag people have won. If you fly the flag you will be perceived as racist, whether that is your intent or not. And for that reason, I think most people who might have flown the flag in the past with no ill intent have put it away for fear of being _perceived_ as racist. And as fewer people of no ill intent fly the flag, that just reinforces the perception that the flag is only flown by racists. > > (I think that also explains the numbers in **Maeglin** ’s linked studies. Those studies are of a specific subset of people who want the Confederate flag as part of the state flag. Not surprising that those die-hards are more likely to have racist attitudes. But showing that some percentage of that _subset_ of people is racist, even if it’s a large percentage, is not the same as showing that everyone who displays the flag intends to convey a racist message.) It is true in Animal House they had a flag. It was not racist. It was an anti-establishment, in your face, I will piss you off flag. It works on that level too. Germans can make an argument like yours. They display a swastika to honor the soldiers who died in WW2. Would you buy that? You can not simply declare the force behind the flag is now irrelevant. But, for a lot of people it is relevant. Some people who show the Confederate Flag are deliberately sending a nasty gram. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/27 "2010-04-29T01:50:43Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > What symbol of the South could be picked that wouldn’t make people think of racism? The flag of the state you are from? I think more state flags should be displayed. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/28 "2010-04-29T02:05:05Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Germans can make an argument like yours. They display a swastika to honor the soldiers who died in WW2. Not legally they don’t; it’s [against the law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_%C2%A7_86a) in Germany. I have as many problems with that as I have with the rebel flag. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/29 "2010-04-29T02:35:52Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Germans can make an argument like yours. They display a swastika to honor the soldiers who died in WW2. Would you buy that? Well the Germans could make an argument like the one you just invented for me. 😉 When did I say anything about honoring soldiers? I said it was common in the 70s as: 1. a symbol of the South (Dukes of Hazzard, Lynyrd Skynyrd); and 2. a symbol of generalized rebelliousness (jean patches, Animal House). Tell me if you disagree with that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/30 "2010-04-29T02:37:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, I was. I may have been thinking of the Alabama flag in particular, since **Sampiro** has discussed that before. It’s true that not everybody who flies that flag is trying to make a racist statement. It’s also true that racists have been using that exact symbol for a long time. You’re saying the flag should be divorced from its origins AND its long-time usage. Do you see where that’s a tough sell? Yes I do. Absolutely. Which is why I lament that there is no other commonly recognized symbol of the South. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/31 "2010-04-29T02:51:20Z")
As an aside, Morrissey caught a lot of flak for parading around on stage in the late 1980s and early 1990s with a Union Jack. He was accused of racism. However, by the mid-1990s, bands such as Oasis were able to use this flag without attracting the same sort of criticism. I’ve said it here before but in Ireland the Confederate Flag has some connotation with American-style beef burgers and what not. It would also be seen displayed by the odd trucker or perhaps by bikers. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/32 "2010-04-29T02:58:35Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I’ve said it here before but in Ireland the Confederate Flag has some connotation with American-style beef burgers and what not. It would also be seen displayed by the odd trucker or perhaps by bikers. I recall seeing a place in Dublin years ago called (oddly to American ears) “The Yankee Rebel.” (I think I’m remembering that name right.) It was painted with a big Confederate flag on the outside. It was closed, so I don’t think we ever figured out what the place was, exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/33 "2010-04-29T03:56:39Z")
Couldn’t one also argue that the Confederate flag is a symbol of _treason_? How is it American? They fought AGAINST the U.S.? They wanted to become their own separate nation. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/34 "2010-04-29T03:58:21Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Well the Germans could make an argument like the one you just invented for me. 😉 When did I say anything about honoring soldiers? > > I said it was common in the 70s as: > > 1. a symbol of the South (Dukes of Hazzard, Lynyrd Skynyrd); and > 2. a symbol of generalized rebelliousness (jean patches, Animal House). > > Tell me if you disagree with that statement. It is a nasty symbol of the south. For many the Civil War is not over. I was in the Atlanta Underground in the 80s.There was a Lester Maddox shop that sold souvenir Lester Maddox axe handles. If you are pretending the Confederate Flag is a benign symbol of the South I do not buy it. If you are really from the south you know damn well there are some nasty groups that use the symbol as a proud sign of oppressing the blacks and their hatred to the northerners. Like I said above. The flag in Animal House was a way of sending the school authorities a nasty gram. They were showing a lack of respect for the values of the school . It was not a symbol of southern pride . ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/35 "2010-04-29T04:31:03Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I don’t believe that the causes of self-determination (in this case, states’ rights and secession), and self-defense against an invader, were or could ever be despicable. They are despicable, loathsome, and blatantly evil when they seek to rob others of self-determination by directly and indirectly invading another land and keep its people as slaves. That there were other evils in the world does not temper this. That there was prejudice, segregation, and indirect benefit from slavery in the North does not temper this. That some poor and ignorant people blindly followed with no idea what they were fighting for does not temper this. The irony of cloaking the South’s transgressions against humanity in the mantle of self-determination and defence against an invader is almost too sharp not to have been intended. The naivety of oversimplifying the Civil War to being just about slavery pales in comparison to the utter gall involved in minimizing its role to the point of footnote. The symbol stems from several years of culminated and manifest hate that was the Confederacy—a relatively short time period in American history pre- and post Civil War. Conflating it with general ancestor-worship of the South, then lamenting when others make the obvious connection to racism and filth, suggests that if your search for an untainted symbol of the South is fruitless, so too is the idea of venerating such a terrible stain on the country. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn\_K\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Shawn\_K\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn_K_1)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/36 "2010-04-29T04:41:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It is a nasty symbol of the south. For many the Civil War is not over. I was in the Atlanta Underground in the 80s.There was a Lester Maddox shop that sold souvenir Lester Maddox axe handles. If you are pretending the Confederate Flag is a benign symbol of the South I do not buy it. If you are really from the south you know damn well there are some nasty groups that use the symbol as a proud sign of oppressing the blacks and their hatred to the northerners. How active are these underground racist groups in the south as far as violence, terrorism, hate speech, recruiting, trying to change legislation? I’m told up here in Canada that the Neo Nazi movement is very powerful and could shut down my province if they felt like it but in my sheltered life I’ve never heard of , personally seen or met any amount of people that seem that organized or capable of doing such things. Is it possible that there’s just a lot of conspiracy theories around about how much power these hate groups have? Just curious because as far as I know at least I’ve never met anyone involved in it and it doesn’t seem to be in the news much up here. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/37 "2010-04-29T05:06:06Z")
The Dixie flag offends people. Maybe it ought not to, but it does. If you display one you are offending people and you are doing it on purpose. I suppose you are allowed to, but why would you want to offend people? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/38 "2010-04-29T05:21:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I was in the Atlanta Underground in the 80s.There was a Lester Maddox shop that sold souvenir Lester Maddox axe handles. I’m not sure what that has to do with the discussion, but Underground Atlanta shut down in 1980 and didn’t open again until 1989. I was there in 1989 when it reopened, and it was nothing more than a harmless (and frankly boring) mall. Nobody was selling souvenir Lester Maddox axe handles, nor would that have been a smart move given Atlanta’s demographics. Maybe it has been longer than you remember? > [@Shawn K](#): > > How active are these underground racist groups in the south as far as violence, terrorism, hate speech, recruiting, trying to change legislation? The Atlanta Underground **gonzomax** is talking about is a below-street-level shopping and entertainment area (/tourist trap). > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Couldn’t one also argue that the Confederate flag is a symbol of treason? How is it American? They fought AGAINST the U.S.? They wanted to become their own separate nation. As **spark240** indicated, the type of people who display the flag today tend to be, if anything, hyper-patriotic types. Just to be clear, I am not advocating flying the flag. I know a lot of people (like friend **gonzomax** ) can see it only as a symbol of hatred and racism. I am only here to tell you (whether or not you choose to believe it) that this is not necessarily the message a person displaying the flag intends to convey. Having said that, I think that most people of good will have put away the flag these days out of politeness, so the likelihood that someone displaying the flag _today_ is a racist is considerably higher than the likelihood that someone flying the flag in, say, 1976 would have been. The flag, while not exactly rare, is a lot less common than it used to be. I tend to do a double-take when I see one these days, whereas in years past they were so ubiquitous I would have thought nothing of seeing one. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/39 "2010-04-29T05:25:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I was in the Atlanta Underground in the 80s.There was a Lester Maddox shop that sold souvenir Lester Maddox axe handles. I find something incredibly endearingly hilarious about the idea of a shop that’s entirely Lester Maddox oriented. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/40 "2010-04-29T05:27:44Z")
I saw a t-shirt that said “This is America and we speak English, comprende?” At first I thought it was hilarious because it was a joke about how we borrow a lot of foreign words. Then I got to thinking about how easily someone could interpret that as me being hostile towards Latinos so I decided not to buy it. Maybe those people who fly the Confederate flag aren’t racist but given the history of the flag you should understand why others don’t share your views. Did _Birth of a Nation_ have anything to do with the resurgence of the Confederate flag as a symbol in the early 20th century? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668.md?page=3)