# Confederate flag neither anti-American nor racist, necessarily **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668 "2010-04-28T20:57:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/81 "2010-04-29T20:29:12Z")
> [@filling\_pages](#): > > As a North Floridian, I assert that South Florida is not, in fact, part of The South. Despite it being to the south. Just for the record, I’m not including Disney culture in this. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/82 "2010-04-29T20:44:35Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Just for the record, I’m not including Disney culture in this. 😉 Nah, that’s Central Florida non-culture. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/83 "2010-04-29T20:47:58Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Because the South has a common cultural heritage that goes all the way back to Jamestown, encompassing food, music, religion, language and literature. Then you’d think they’d at least be able to agree about how to cook barbecue. 😉 And seriously, dude, if you think that American movies and TV in the 70s and 80s didn’t reflect a lot of persistent racism in contemporary cultural attitudes, you simply weren’t paying attention. Mind you, I wouldn’t say that mainstream popular entertainment was actively **encouraging** racist attitudes. And there were indeed a few shows that consciously tried to present non-racist attitudes, if that’s what you mean by “white liberal guilt” (interesting that you automatically interpret racial egalitarianism in white-dominated media as motivated by “guilt”, by the way!). But no extraterrestrial visitor watching American TV and movies in that era would have been able to avoid the impression that dark-skinned Northwestern-Continent Earthlings were considered a socially separate and somewhat disfavored group by light-skinned Northwestern-Continent Earthlings. It may not have been outright “Confederate-flag-level” racism, but it was certainly apparent. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/84 "2010-04-29T20:52:19Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > That’s obviously a typo. But I’ll rewrite: > > “I’m not sure what exactly you’re referring to here when you say “Southern culture,” but the grits reference makes me think you are referring either to Savannah culture **or** Appalachian culture.” But again, where is the walk through showing how all these cultures have unifying elements? Sigh. This is as tiresome as training a puppy not to piss all over the rug. First things first. [Grits](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grits). As you can see, they are ubiquitous in the South. They are one of the markers for the amorphous borders of Southern culture. The incorporation of grits into the diet spread along migration routes (along with other [Southern cuisine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisine_of_the_Southern_United_States), grits just being an easy example). Grits arrived in New Orleans and were incorporated into the diet there via the westward migration of Southerners along the frontier. (Do I need to walk you through historic migration patterns? Or did you have time to study that in school between classes on 70s TV?) Now what is this Savannah culture of which you speak? I am curious, having lived there for a time myself. How is it different from the rest of the South, exactly? And why do you regard grits as being peculiarly part of this “Savannah culture”? Please enlighten me from your perch in (checking…) Los Angeles. Your assigned reading: [Albion’s Seed](http://www.amazon.com/Albions-Seed-British-Folkways-Cultural/dp/0195069056/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272574202&sr=8-1). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/85 "2010-04-29T20:56:57Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > This is as tiresome as training a puppy not to piss all over the rug. Or giving thoughtful responses to thoughtless assertions-pulled-out-of-the-ass about the alleged absence of racism in 1970’s TV and movies. But if other posters have the patience to fight your ignorance politely, **spoke-** , you should do the same for them. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/86 "2010-04-29T20:57:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Then you’d think they’d at least be able to agree about how to cook barbecue. 😉 > > And seriously, dude, if you think that American movies and TV in the 70s and 80s didn’t reflect a lot of persistent racism in contemporary cultural attitudes, you simply weren’t paying attention. Mind you, I wouldn’t say that mainstream popular entertainment was actively **encouraging** racist attitudes. And there were indeed a few shows that consciously tried to present non-racist attitudes, if that’s what you mean by “white liberal guilt” (interesting that you automatically interpret racial egalitarianism in white-dominated media as motivated by “guilt”, by the way!). > > But no extraterrestrial visitor watching American TV and movies in that era would have been able to avoid the impression that dark-skinned Northwestern-Continent Earthlings were considered a socially separate and somewhat disfavored group by light-skinned Northwestern-Continent Earthlings. It may not have been outright “Confederate-flag-level” racism, but it was certainly apparent. The 70s especially is an odd decade to use as evidence of white liberal guilt, since that’s the era when the [Blacksploitation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksploitation) film genre was in its heyday. These movies have now acquired a certain kitschy quality to them, but that kitschiness stems in part from their outmoded portrayals of black people. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/87 "2010-04-29T21:01:39Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Now what is this Savannah culture of which you speak? I am curious, having lived there for a time myself. Brash transvestites, murdering lawyers, and Paula Deen. > [@](#): > > How is it different from the rest of the South, exactly? The Damyanks didn’t destroy it. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/88 "2010-04-29T21:07:26Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Sigh. This is as tiresome as training a puppy not to piss all over the rug. > > First things first. [Grits](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grits). > > As you can see, they are ubiquitous in the South. They are one of the markers for the amorphous borders of Southern culture. The incorporation of grits into the diet spread along migration routes (along with other [Southern cuisine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisine_of_the_Southern_United_States), grits just being an easy example). Grits arrived in New Orleans and were incorporated into the diet there via the westward migration of Southerners along the frontier. (Do I need to walk you through historic migration patterns? Or did you have time to study that in school between classes on 70s TV?) Now you’re contradicting yourself. How do grits tie to Jamestown if they arrived via New Orleans? And your food link supports my point, since it breaks down the food along the regional cultural lines that I’ve been mentioning throughout the thread. > [@](#): > > Now what is this Savannah culture of which you speak? I am curious, having lived there for a time myself. How is it different from the rest of the South, exactly? And why do you regard grits as being peculiarly part of this “Savannah culture”? Please enlighten me from your perch in (checking…) Los Angeles. I’m using this as shorthand for the Eastern Seaboard culture in the South, which has it’s roots in plantation culture and is distinct from Appalachian culture. Do you really not see a historical distinction between Appalachian culture and the culture to the East of it? > [@](#): > > Your assigned reading: [Albion’s Seed](http://www.amazon.com/Albions-Seed-British-Folkways-Cultural/dp/0195069056/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272574202&sr=8-1). I’m not going to buy a book just for an online debate. If you want to quote relevant sections of the book, that would be useful (and is customary practice here in SDMB culture). ETA: I’m reporting your pissing puppy comment, since I believe it violates the rules of this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/89 "2010-04-29T21:07:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Then you’d think they’d at least be able to agree about how to cook barbecue. 😉 Pity the poor Texans. They can’t manage to raise hogs in the scrublands, so they get stuck with beef. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/90 "2010-04-29T21:18:25Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Now you’re contradicting yourself. How do grits tie to Jamestown if they arrived via New Orleans? Read more carefully, please. I said they arrived in New Orleans via westward migration of Southerners along the frontier. (Not that they came _from_ New Orleans.) > [@](#): > > I’m using this as shorthand for the Eastern Seaboard culture in the South, which has it’s roots in plantation culture and is distinct from Appalachian culture. Do you really not see a historical distinction between Appalachian culture and the culture to the East of it? So…wait…Savannah culture is or isn’t a separate culture? And did they invent grits there? Your earlier post seemed to imply something like that. Of course there are distinctions between Appalachia and tidewater (the word I think you are groping for instead of “Savannah culture”). But there are more commonalities than distinctions. Appalachia wasn’t only populated by the Ulster Scots, but also by Virginians moving westward along the frontier. (Some of my own ancestors, in fact.) The cultures were mingled in the hills, along with African and Native American influences. > [@](#): > > I’m not going to buy a book just for an online debate. And I’m not going to conduct a seminar for you. Study before spouting off. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/91 "2010-04-29T21:20:25Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Despite the (ahem) _vehemence_ of your post 😉 , I sort of agree with this point. However the flag has been used in the past, and however its display in the present may be intended, I think the flag is so tainted by its associations at this point that I wouldn’t display it. > > But to reiterate my main point, even though I wouldn’t display it, I would be a little cautious in leaping to conclusions about what someone who _does_ display it intends to convey. I don’t have any problems with leaping to conclusions in this issue, just as I’m not going to assume a white guy’s Hindu if I see him with a swastika. There are certain things that are accurately portrayed by stereotype. I don’t have time to question and talk to every single person with a Confederate flag. If I see a big group of them marching and shouting about states’ rights, I’m going to assume they’re ignorant hicks. It pisses me off that people don’t give any leeway when facts support it, they just want to look evenhanded and treat everyone the same. If you’re dark-skinned and Indian looking, I’m not going to look twice at a swastika on your shirt, but if you’re white and have a Confederate flag, I’m going to assume the worst. Chances are that I’m right ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/92 "2010-04-29T21:22:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But if other posters have the patience to fight your ignorance politely, **spoke-** , you should do the same for them. You are right. I retract the statement and apologize for my own pissiness. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/93 "2010-04-29T21:30:06Z")
Regarding 70s media, It’s a silly side track. Recall that the original point is that people didn’t get all up in arms over the Confederate flag on _The Dukes of Hazzard_. Which is a true statement, regardless of how racist you think 70s TV may have been. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/94 "2010-04-29T21:37:37Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Right. Huggy Bear is an example of white liberal guilt. The only way you can seriously make this statement is if you’ve never done any kind of critical studies on Film and TV history. I totally was confusing this with the Snuggle bear from the detergent ad. When I google imaged it, I was in for a rough shock. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/95 "2010-04-29T21:38:59Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Regarding 70s media, It’s a silly side track. Recall that the original point is that people didn’t get all up in arms over the Confederate flag on _The Dukes of Hazzard_. Which is a true statement, regardless of how racist you think 70s TV may have been. Is this a concession that you were incorrect about the media being highly racist back then? Because if it is, then it’s not a silly sidetrack. There were so many cultural, legal and political fights going on back then, that we can’t assume that a lack of protest (if indeed there was one, I vaguely recall differently, but I can’t find cites about these specific shows) is indicative of anything. People have to prioritize their battles when they have a finite amount of resources, and personally, if I had to choose between resources for fighting a desegregation battle (and these battles were very much in play during the 70s) or fighting against Dukes of Hazzard, I personally would choose the former. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/96 "2010-04-29T21:39:08Z")
ETA quote for context: > [@spoke-](#): > > Regarding 70s media, It’s a silly side track. Recall that the original point is that people didn’t get all up in arms over the Confederate flag on _The Dukes of Hazzard_. Which is a true statement, regardless of how racist you think 70s TV may have been. Arms weren’t gotten up in over people calling others “boy” and the like either. People didn’t get their arms up over blackface a while before that. I’m not sure what did/didn’t bother people in the past is your best line of argument. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/97 "2010-04-29T21:40:14Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I totally was confusing this with the Snuggle bear from the detergent ad. When I google imaged it, I was in for a rough shock. Aw, poor Huggy Bear. Or is it poor Snuggle Bear? I feel like this is a Robot Chicken sketch in the making. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/98 "2010-04-29T21:41:24Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > You are right. I retract the statement and apologize for my own pissiness. Ok, well I didn’t get around to reporting it, so I won’t at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/99 "2010-04-29T21:44:20Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > The Confederate States of America were **not** anti-American–though they _were_, of course, the battlefield enemy of a political entity known as the United States of America. Don’t play dense and tell me that you don’t know the difference between _America_ and the political entity. > > The Confederacy _was_ America–as was the Union. Both sides claimed the inheritance of the Founders, and both sides were justified in doing so, at least to a point. > > [/size] This is just straight up nonsense. If you declare war on the Government of America, you are Anti-American. If you raid the homes of ‘Americans’, as the Army of the Confederacy did, how is that an action against the government? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668/100 "2010-04-29T21:46:51Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > And I’m not going to conduct a seminar for you. Study before spouting off. Since you’ve posted a board apology, I’m not going to respond in kind here, but nothing you’ve posted here has convinced me that there is a unifying southern culture. If you don’t want to back it up, then we’re at an impasse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-neither-anti-american-nor-racist-necessarily/537668.md?page=6)