# Confederate Flag outside the South **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 7, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783 "2011-03-07T15:05:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/21 "2011-03-07T19:58:57Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Are you sure it was the Conferate Flag and not the British Union Jack? > > [union jack flag - Google Search](http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=union+jack+flag&wrapid=tlif129952333289010&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=DSd1TfzqDIjQsAObrrDACw&ved=0CE0QsAQ&biw=1058&bih=653) “I say, old chap, you wear your X and I’ll wear mine.” ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/22 "2011-03-07T20:01:36Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > I know that I wouldn’t drive around with an[FLQ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Liberation_Front) license plate if I weren’t from Quebec. You wouldn’t drive around with a FLQ symbol on your license plate if you were from Quebec either. I’ve never seen the flag on this Wikipedia page ever before, I don’t think anybody I know would recognize it, and the FLQ is all in all a pretty infamous group. For Quebec symbols, you’d be far more likely to see the [official flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Quebec), or if someone really wants to show support for Quebec independence, the [Patriote flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Patriote_movement_(Lower_Canada).svg). (Note that [this painting of a Patriote](http://www.librairiemonet.com/blogue/tag/rebellion-des-patriotes/) was also used by the FLQ on their stationery, and is much more likely to be recognized than the one-star flag above.) But all that’s quite unlikely as I just don’t see many people putting symbols on their license plates (or even flying flags) around here. The Confederate battle flag I very rarely see, but I will say that [in its 3:2 variant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svg) (not the square one in the OP), it’s a very beautiful flag. I like it much better than the current US flag. I’m aware that to some people it symbolizes racism and nostalgia for a way of life based on slavery, and I wouldn’t actually fly it or use it in any way, but aesthetically speaking it’s a great flag. And I have tried putting salted peanuts into glass Coke bottles, after seeing it suggested here! It was pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/23 "2011-03-07T20:06:35Z")
I see this fairly often in Western Canada, typically on a semi-truck or a half-ton. I strongly suspect it’s a kind of “redneck pride” or general rebellion sentiment, with no thought as to the actual meaning of the flag, though I can’t help but mentally think “asshole!” when I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/24 "2011-03-07T20:08:28Z")
It’s a great way to convince people that one is a complete fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/25 "2011-03-07T20:30:01Z")
Personally, I love the “African colors” Confederate flags (similar to [this](http://www.blackartdepot.com/tshirts/urbanprofile/confederate-front.jpg), though there are better renderings) I’ve seen a few black guys wearing–confounding both racists and people who think a starry saltire _has_ to signify racism. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/26 "2011-03-07T20:41:27Z")
I’ve seen that flat in [Belfast](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4136/4789323962_20be0312f2.jpg). As I’ve said in other threads I believe the flag was also used on packaging for beef burgers or something like that here. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/27 "2011-03-07T21:03:44Z")
> [@kenner116](#): > > I once saw a Confederate battle flag on a pickup truck in Moscow. Wasn’t very shocking, as Russia isn’t known for its racial tolerance. [Photo here](http://www.flickr.com/photos/kenner116/4025613406/sizes/l/in/set-72157622616313282/). (Warning: truck also has profanity written on it). Now that’s a redneck wagon. I guess you can find this sort of sentiment in every country. > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I’ve seen that flat in [Belfast](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4136/4789323962_20be0312f2.jpg). As I’ve said in other threads I believe the flag was also used on packaging for beef burgers or something like that here. Is the Confederate battle flag used as a Unionist symbol over there? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/28 "2011-03-07T21:08:51Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Is the Confederate battle flag used as a Unionist symbol over there? Yeah, what’s going on there? Next to an Ulster banner? This is really messing me up. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/29 "2011-03-07T21:42:55Z")
> [@Sakuma\_Drops](#): > > I don’t think they’re “rebels” in the same sense that the people in New England are; I think it’s more of an “I’m from the South, I’m proud of it, so deal with it” sort of thing (on-the-record they’ll explain it as “I’m honoring the history of the South, and this is one of our symbols”). I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that sentiment as well, but it strikes me as being just as valid as a German hick displaying a swastika in celebration of the ingenuity, social cohesiveness and industrial power displayed by Germany in the 1930s-40s. I mean, yes, it does remind one of all that but there’s also one more little thing… I just can’t look at a confederate flag and think only of gorgeous plantation homes, massive farming economy, struggles against outside powers, and Coca-Cola. I hope this post doesn’t count as **Godwinization**. Seems like a reasonably fair comparison to me. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/30 "2011-03-07T21:47:46Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Yeah, what’s going on there? Next to an Ulster banner? It does make sense, with the shared Scots-Irish identity of Ulster Protestants and American Southerners. They may also see it as a generic “conservative resistance” symbol. But I’m wondering if it is commonly used by Unionists. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/31 "2011-03-07T21:50:46Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Is the Confederate battle flag used as a Unionist symbol over there? I’ve only seen it in Unionist areas but I don’t think it’s that commonly used. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/32 "2011-03-07T21:59:43Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > You wouldn’t drive around with a FLQ symbol on your license plate if you were from Quebec either. I’ve never seen the flag on this Wikipedia page ever before, I don’t think anybody I know would recognize it, and the FLQ is all in all a pretty infamous group. For Quebec symbols, you’d be far more likely to see the [official flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Quebec), or if someone really wants to show support for Quebec independence, the [Patriote flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Patriote_movement_(Lower_Canada).svg). (Note that [this painting of a Patriote](http://www.librairiemonet.com/blogue/tag/rebellion-des-patriotes/) was also used by the FLQ on their stationery, and is much more likely to be recognized than the one-star flag above.) But all that’s quite unlikely as I just don’t see many people putting symbols on their license plates (or even flying flags) around here. > > And I have tried putting salted peanuts into glass Coke bottles, after seeing it suggested here! It was pretty good. A better parallel would be the so-called [Republic of Newfoundland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_Tricolour) flag, since it has overtones of both loving Newfoundland, and of wishing Newfoundland had never joined Canada. Plus[the provincial flag is pretty ugly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Newfoundland_and_Labrador). > [@Docta\_G](#): > > It’s a great way to convince people that one is a complete fucking idiot. 😃 > [@spark240](#): > > Personally, I love the “African colors” Confederate flags (similar to [this](http://www.blackartdepot.com/tshirts/urbanprofile/confederate-front.jpg), though there are better renderings) I’ve seen a few black guys wearing–confounding both racists and people who think a starry saltire _has_ to signify racism. Cool > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I’ve seen that flat in [Belfast](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4136/4789323962_20be0312f2.jpg). As I’ve said in other threads I believe the flag was also used on packaging for beef burgers or something like that here. It looks like that scene has a [cross of St. George / flag of England](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_England) with all it’s racist overtones, and a bunch of graffiti including “immigrants out”. I don’t think we have to worry about the Southern Pride message in this one, I think the Confederate flag was picked for its racist connotation as well. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/33 "2011-03-07T22:06:39Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > It does make sense, with the shared Scots-Irish identity of Ulster Protestants and American Southerners. They may also see it as a generic “conservative resistance” symbol. But I’m wondering if it is commonly used by Unionists. I claim no expertise (or connection!) with Northern Ireland, but I could see the “logic” of it being used by Loyalists (rather than by mainstream Unionists). I don’t recall ever having seen it in any news coverage, though. (In fact until recently, I suppose it might even have been technically illegal to display it, although that’s a whole other kettle of fish…) > [@Khaki\_Campbell](#): > > Of course if Prince Harry had dressed in Mao or Che Guevara attire, no one would have batted an eye. He would even have been lauded for it :rolleyes: Yeah, sure. :rolleyes: If for no other reason, it was inappropriate given that the UK was almost brought to its knees by the Nazi régime. There are of course still people around in the UK who either served back then, or whose family suffered directly from bombing. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/34 "2011-03-07T22:08:53Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > It looks like that scene has a [cross of St. George / flag of England](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_England) with all it’s racist overtones, and a bunch of graffiti including “immigrants out”. I don’t think we have to worry about the Southern Pride message in this one, I think the Confederate flag was picked for its racist connotation as well. It’s almost certainly the [Red Hand flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Banner). ---
**Author:** ![Sakuma\_Drops](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sakuma\_Drops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sakuma_Drops)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/35 "2011-03-07T22:13:05Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that sentiment as well, but it strikes me as being just as valid as a German hick displaying a swastika in celebration of the ingenuity, social cohesiveness and industrial power displayed by Germany in the 1930s-40s. I mean, yes, it does remind one of all that but there’s also one more little thing… I just can’t look at a confederate flag and think only of gorgeous plantation homes, massive farming economy, struggles against outside powers, and Coca-Cola. > > I hope this post doesn’t count as **Godwinization**. Seems like a reasonably fair comparison to me. Well granted, I’ve never really understood the sentiment myself (and I grew up in the South). I mean, I understand the flag’s use in a strictly historical context, such as if you’re a big Civil War buff/re-enactor, or if you’re in a place like a museum or historical site. Displaying it purely as a symbol of Southern Pride…I guess the way I look at it is it’s sort of like the song “Sweet Home Alabama”. Neil Young wrote “Southern Man” which is a criticism of the legacy of racism in the South. In response, Lynyrd Skynyrd wrote a song that doesn’t so much say “Hey, you know, we’re not really racist”, but rather, “hey, the South is a great place, and we don’t need your kind around here!” In some uses the Confederate flag seems more confrontational to me than anything else; I don’t think the people who put it on their trucks and whatnot are TOTALLY unaware of how controversial it is, but don’t want to _not_ display it just because of something some non-Southern snob might have to say. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/36 "2011-03-07T22:33:39Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > It looks like that scene has a [cross of St. George / flag of England](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_England) with all it’s racist overtones, and a bunch of graffiti including “immigrants out”. I don’t think we have to worry about the Southern Pride message in this one, I think the Confederate flag was picked for its racist connotation as well. As A. Gwilliam has pointed out it’s probably the Ulster flag. You don’t see too many St. George flags flying up north but saltires are common enough. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/37 "2011-03-07T22:46:57Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > I could see the “logic” of it being used by Loyalists (rather than by mainstream Unionists). Southern secesh tended to think of themselves as inheritors of the American-independence revolutionary mantle–pretty polar opposite of unionist sentiment, I would think. The Irish American-Confederate contingents saw the parallels between that cause and Irish republicanism. Of course there were Irish American-Union contingents as well, who also identified with the republican cause. I’m not sure that the Scots-Irish who were inclined to favor union with Britain would be the ones emigrating to the States in any case, North or South. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/38 "2011-03-07T23:09:15Z")
I was driving my sister to Cornell up in Ithaca, NY one summer, and we passed by an old house that had a ginormous confederate flag on the roof. It made me think that if the owner had gone through all that effort to put it up there, they could have at least painted the house while they were at it. You know, really show some pride, if that’s the look they’re going for. And there’s something off with people broadcasting their “rebelliousness” by waving a flag. It’s kind of like saying, “Hey, lookit me! I’m trying to be a cool kid, see?! Ain’t I cool? Tell me I’m cool, dammit!” Just be a “rebel” if that’s what you are (and I seriously doubt you are, but whatever). No need to nullify your non-conformity by conforming to the stereotypical image of non-conformity. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/39 "2011-03-07T23:15:47Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > As A. Gwilliam has pointed out it’s probably the Ulster flag. You don’t see too many St. George flags flying up north but saltires are common enough. Thanks for the info. I appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/40 "2011-03-07T23:42:38Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Southern secesh tended to think of themselves as inheritors of the American-independence revolutionary mantle–pretty polar opposite of unionist sentiment, I would think. Well, trying to apply strictly objective reasoning to Northern Ireland cultural and political aspirations and attitudes is going to give anyone a headache! 😃 As I understand them, Loyalists have felt themselves to be a persecuted, friendless, powerless minority, generally ignored by both mainstream society and mainstream political leaders (including those traditionally claiming to speak on their behalf). Their outlook has tended to harken back to better days more than most people do, and they perhaps tended to have a very defensive attitude. They far more strongly associate themselves with traditional politico-cultural symbols than most people do. They used to be associated with an entrenched minority that ruled an essentially subjugated majority with a distinctly different cultural outlook. The wider society no longer treats them as being part of a group with a natural entitlement to rule, and their cherished traditional symbols, values, and assumptions are subjected to a criticism or even abuse that once was never permitted. Some dream of achieving a modern-day independent state. Does any of this sound familiar? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783.md?page=3)