# Confederate Flag outside the South **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 7, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783 "2011-03-07T15:05:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/41 "2011-03-08T01:50:20Z")
I’ve seen plenty of Confederate flags displayed in rural Pennsylvania. The intent of the display seems to vary between “I’m not fond of black people” to “I’m proud to be a redneck.” (Which isn’t mutually exclusive to not being fond of black people) Displaying the Confederate flag is rather politically incorrect, which I think adds to the rebel appeal. My teenage hooligan self once stole a Confederate flag flying in someone’s yard. I wrote “ANARCHY IN The C.S.A” real big on it and hung it in my room. ---
**Author:** ![Sakuma\_Drops](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sakuma\_Drops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sakuma_Drops)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/42 "2011-03-08T02:02:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I was driving my sister to Cornell up in Ithaca, NY one summer, and we passed by an old house that had a ginormous confederate flag on the roof. It made me think that if the owner had gone through all that effort to put it up there, they could have at least painted the house while they were at it. You know, really show some pride, if that’s the look they’re going for. Yeah, I went to Cornell too. Ithaca’s mostly fine (as are Syracuse, Geneva, Elmira, etc.) but there really are some pockets of intense redneckery elsewhere in the Southern Tier that put the South to shame. I’m not really all that surprised that someone put a huge ass Stars n’ Bars up on their roof. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/43 "2011-03-08T02:12:48Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > As I understand them, Loyalists have felt themselves to be a persecuted, friendless, powerless minority, generally ignored by both mainstream society and mainstream political leaders (including those traditionally claiming to speak on their behalf). Their outlook has tended to harken back to better days more than most people do, and they perhaps tended to have a very defensive attitude. They far more strongly associate themselves with traditional politico-cultural symbols than most people do. They used to be associated with an entrenched minority that ruled an essentially subjugated majority with a distinctly different cultural outlook. The wider society no longer treats them as being part of a group with a natural entitlement to rule, and their cherished traditional symbols, values, and assumptions are subjected to a criticism or even abuse that once was never permitted. > > Some dream of achieving a modern-day independent state. > > Does any of this sound familiar? 🙂 It sounds like the Jews, actually. From the looking around I’ve done on Ulster Loyalist facebook groups, pro-Israel sentiment is as common among them as anti-Israel sentiment is among the Republican types. I.e. very, very common. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/44 "2011-03-08T04:03:00Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > From the looking around I’ve done on Ulster Loyalist facebook groups, pro-Israel sentiment is as common among them as anti-Israel sentiment is among the Republican types. I.e. very, very common. That’s probably just an artefact of Ulster Unionism being associated with “right-wing” causes and Irish Republicanism with “left-wing” causes. Irish Republicanism, because of its imagery as the nationalism of an oppressed people, has tended to associate itself with left-wing ideas such as socialism and Marxism, and with other nationalisms perceived to be of oppressed people, such as Palestinian nationalism. Ulster Unionism, by contrast, has cultivated a law and order, right-wing image, with also a less internationalist appeal and even a certain xenophobia – see the graffiti in **An Gadaí** ’s picture for example. If Ulster Unionists are pro-Israel, it’s probably because of this position being seen as conservative and “law-and-order”, because of a reaction to the pro-Palestinian slant of the Republicans, and perhaps even because of a generalized fear of Muslim immigration to Northern Ireland which is seen as comparable to Israel’s issues. If you, as a Jew, expect that you’d find friends in Unionists and enemies in Republicans in Northern Ireland, it may not be all that simple. Anyway, that’s my impression given my (admittedly not very large) knowledge of the sectarian issues in Northern Ireland. I invite **An Gadaí** to correct my misapprehensions. I should also point out that I’m not here passing moral judgments on either Unionism or Republicanism. Both sides have had their terrorists, in many cases driven by unemployment and helplessness. The “right-wing” and “left-wing” labels are just that, labels, even though they influenced the movements. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/45 "2011-03-08T04:18:51Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > If you, as a Jew, expect that you’d find friends in Unionists and enemies in Republicans in Northern Ireland, it may not be all that simple. As a Jew (by birth, not by practice,) I don’t know. But as a political conservative I suspect I’d have more ideological allies in the North. Incidentally, from my browsing on Google Earth, there are Masonic lodges all over Northern Ireland but none in the rest of Ireland. Would a member of this fraternity from America (and one who would have some political common ground with the Ulster people) find it easy to fraternize with the Northern Irish Masons, visit their lodges, etc - or are these lodges highly regional and aligned along factional lines with various Ulster political groups? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/46 "2011-03-08T07:25:22Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > As a Jew (by birth, not by practice,) I don’t know. But as a political conservative I suspect I’d have more ideological allies in the North. Incidentally, from my browsing on Google Earth, there are Masonic lodges all over Northern Ireland but none in the rest of Ireland. Would a member of this fraternity from America (and one who would have some political common ground with the Ulster people) find it easy to fraternize with the Northern Irish Masons, visit their lodges, etc - or are these lodges highly regional and aligned along factional lines with various Ulster political groups? I dunno specifically about the masons but a visitor from America would get on grand in Northern Ireland. As guidebooks always tell me about the US however, it’s best to avoid bringing up politics. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/47 "2011-03-08T08:33:27Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that sentiment as well, but it strikes me as being just as valid as a German hick displaying a swastika in celebration of the ingenuity, social cohesiveness and industrial power displayed by Germany in the 1930s-40s. I mean, yes, it does remind one of all that but there’s also one more little thing… I just can’t look at a confederate flag and think only of gorgeous plantation homes, massive farming economy, struggles against outside powers, and Coca-Cola. > > I hope this post doesn’t count as **Godwinization**. Seems like a reasonably fair comparison to me. You mean Pepsi, right? Or Mountain Dew. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/48 "2011-03-08T09:03:41Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > As a Jew (by birth, not by practice,) I don’t know. But as a political conservative I suspect I’d have more ideological allies in the North. Incidentally, from my browsing on Google Earth, there are Masonic lodges all over Northern Ireland but none in the rest of Ireland. Would a member of this fraternity from America (and one who would have some political common ground with the Ulster people) find it easy to fraternize with the Northern Irish Masons, visit their lodges, etc - or are these lodges highly regional and aligned along factional lines with various Ulster political groups? By the way, and this is a bit of a hijack, what do you mean by saying you’re politically conservative? I ask because the current régime in the Republic is probably more economically right-wing than that in the North. Northern Ireland as it currently stands couldn’t sustain itself without plenty of taxpayer money from Britain. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/49 "2011-03-08T11:18:36Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > By the way, and this is a bit of a hijack, what do you mean by saying you’re politically conservative? I ask because the current régime in the Republic is probably more economically right-wing than that in the North. Northern Ireland as it currently stands couldn’t sustain itself without plenty of taxpayer money from Britain. As the OP, I approve this hijack. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sakuma\_Drops](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sakuma\_Drops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sakuma_Drops)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/50 "2011-03-08T13:47:15Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > You mean Pepsi, right? Or Mountain Dew. Depends. Pepsi is all over the damn place in the Carolinas, but try asking for one in Atlanta. I think they still tar and feather people for doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/51 "2011-03-08T14:17:33Z")
Alright, so the reason people still display the Confederate flag is to celebrate their Irish-Newfoundland heritage. Makes sense now. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/52 "2011-03-08T14:57:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Alright, so the reason people still display the Confederate flag is to celebrate their Irish-Newfoundland heritage. Unless they’re Anglicans! ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/53 "2011-03-08T20:13:09Z")
> [@Sakuma\_Drops](#): > > Depends. Pepsi is all over the damn place in the Carolinas, but try asking for one in Atlanta. I think they still tar and feather people for doing that. Fair enough. Pepsi seemed to me to be predominant cola in TN, too. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/54 "2011-03-09T01:27:59Z")
I was always surprised of how many Confederate Battle flags were flying in the Yankee state of Kentucky. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/55 "2011-03-09T02:08:42Z")
Montreal would have reason to display the Confederate flat (the proper one, not the rectangular battle flag) over some historic sites since there were many Confederate sympathizers and Confederate agents there. Montreal’s St. Lawrence Hotel was about as close as the Confederacy had to an embassy in any country. That said I’m guessing this wasn’t to commemorate a historical spot in Montreal, so next best evidence is the people were dicks. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/56 "2011-03-09T02:32:35Z")
Is the German Imperial Flag or the Iron Cross offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/57 "2011-03-09T02:37:50Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Is the German Imperial Flag or the Iron Cross offensive? Depends on where it’s flown. In the U.S. and Canada the Imperial flag probably wouldn’t be recognized. There are definitely places the Iron Cross might be seen as offensive due to its Nazi affiliations (even though it was neither begun by nor unique to the Nazis). ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/58 "2011-03-09T02:52:46Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Is the German Imperial Flag or the Iron Cross offensive? If I were a normal mainstream pretty liberal-by-North-American-standards modern German citizen, and I found myself in SoCal and there were some dude flying a German Imperial flag, yeah, I suspect that I would find it dickish, for the same reasons - they’re be displaying a symbol whose depth and complexity and history - good and bad - they don’t understand. They almost _can’t_ understand. It’s a German thing. 'Course you prolly already knew my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/59 "2011-03-09T02:56:28Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > There are definitely places the Iron Cross might be seen as offensive due to its Nazi affiliations (even though it was neither begun by nor unique to the Nazis). The Iron Cross has been totally appropriated by Orange County Choppers and other motorcycle-related brands that push a “badass” image. Nobody would even think twice about it nowadays, and probably wouldn’t even know that it originated in Germany at all. ---
**Author:** ![Suil\_Dubh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@Suil\_Dubh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suil_Dubh)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783/60 "2011-03-09T03:34:43Z")
The Confederate flag is also used in modern [Rockabilly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockabilly) (the musical genre). If you do a Google Image search for “rockabilly confederate flag” you can see some examples of what I mean. I’m not a rockabilly myself, so I can’t tell you what the definte connotations of the flag are for this style of music. But from the rockabilly music I’ve listened to I’d guess that it’s got more to do with the “rock’n’roll rebel” attitude than anything to do with racism, or even the American South. Modern rockabilly is very popular in Europe and Japan, and I’ve seen the flag used by bands from these countries. So there’s a slight chance that when the OP sees it in Canada, it might belong to a rockabilly or 1950’s rock’n’roll fan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-flag-outside-the-south/573783.md?page=4)