# confederate memorial day **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998 "2013-09-30T13:40:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/41 "2013-10-01T02:29:37Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > If you can’t see that soldiers who fight as ordered and die for what they believe to be right - be they our Sainted American Revolutionaries, Confederates, Wehrmacht or Sitting Bull’s warriors - are all the same in the grave, then I pity you. Sorry, but “what they believed to be right” to me is far more important than that they followed orders. We could do with a lot fewer people who are willing to follow orders when they’re told to do something that conflicts with what I consider the right thing to believe in. One step is to stop honoring people for that. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/42 "2013-10-01T02:41:12Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > If you can’t see that soldiers who fight as ordered and die for what they believe to be right - be they our Sainted American Revolutionaries, Confederates, Wehrmacht or Sitting Bull’s warriors - are all the same in the grave, then I pity you. I repent and will immediately start lobbying for a memorial to those 19 heroes who died for what they believed was right on 9/11/2001. :rolleyes: Sorry, bro. You can’t liberal-guilt me into agreeing with you. I’m not that much of a Kumbayah singing liberal pussy. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/43 "2013-10-01T03:57:08Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > Louisiana is one of the states mentioned in the Wiki article. I’ve lived here my entire life and have never heard of Confederate Memorial Day being observed here or in any other southern state. Neither have I and I have lived the majority of my life in the States:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/44 "2013-10-01T09:28:05Z")
I’ve never heard of it in Tennessee. I’ve lived here 70 years. Must not be much publicity for it. We were already out of school by June 3. Most Southerners were. It’s not a state holiday. And Tennessee is not “Deep South.” It’s known as the “Mid-South.” I wish it were “Deep South.” There are lovely traditions and advantages associated with the cultures of states further south. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/45 "2013-10-01T11:51:13Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > Yes, one can consider them separately, but… > > And, IMO, that seems to be the underlying theme to various memorials to the Confederacy over the past 50-odd years. At best they’re used to tweak an imagined liberal sensibility regarding minorities. At worst, ithey’re a sop to groups who want to put minorities “in their place”. Either way, it’s not usually about the nobility of the common soldier. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > Also, what’s this stuff about the last fifty years? Has there been a run on new monuments? As far as I can recall, the ubiquitous Confederate-soldier statues in Southern town squares and cemeteries were mostly all dedicated in the 1880s through 1920s (when some veterans were still around). Looking at this [list of Civil War monuments in Kentucky](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Civil_War_Monuments_of_Kentucky), I see that the most recent dedication was in 1934. No other state seems to have a similar wiki article, so if there are new monuments being built, I’m unable to find it. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > I’ve never seen anything remotely like the first. Nor I, but there’s plenty of monuments out there. The one in my county just has an excert from the poem [_Bivouac of the Dead_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivouac_of_the_Dead). > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Except that they weren’t American soldiers at the time. They were either soldiers of another country or traitors, depending on how you view such things. They were traitors, but one can honor their courage and sacrifice without honoring the treason. Don’t forget that our founding fathers were traitors, though for a far nobler cause. Also: > [@Trinopus](#): > > At that time, many people held that a man’s “homeland” was his state, not his country. The sobriquet “War Between the States” is not wholly wrong. The table of organization at, say, Shiloh includes several “U.S. Regiments,” but also a number of “Ohio Regiments,” “Pennsylvania Regiments,” “Illinois Regiments,” and so on. (Um, quoting from memory here; it’s been a while since I transcribed a Shiloh OOB.) Anyway, both U.S. formations and state formations. That’s a fine point; for someone like Robert E. Lee, the choice was between betraying his state or his nation. At the time, the former seemed more heinous. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/46 "2013-10-01T12:57:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > They were traitors, but one can honor their courage and sacrifice without honoring the treason. Don’t forget that our founding fathers were traitors, though for a far nobler cause. Killing or dying for an ignoble cause should not be honored or respected or celebrated. All those things are encouragement. We should instead discourage it. Lee should have been hanged. I would be in favor of honoring his execution. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/47 "2013-10-01T13:04:13Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I repent and will immediately start lobbying for a memorial to those 19 heroes who died for what they believed was right on 9/11/2001. :rolleyes: One day you’ll figure out the difference. I won’t be holding my breath. > [@](#): > > Sorry, bro. You can’t liberal-guilt me into agreeing with you. I’m not that much of a Kumbayah singing liberal pussy. I think the political dichotomy has reached nonsense level when some half-wit can seriously suggest that saying dead soldiers are worthy of respect is the mark of a namby-pamby liberal. You keep using these words. I don’t think any of them mean what you think they do. Bro. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/48 "2013-10-01T14:07:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Killing or dying for an ignoble cause should not be honored or respected or celebrated. All those things are encouragement. We should instead discourage it. Veneration of a warrior caste goes back to pre-modern times. It’s not the cause that’s being honored, respected, or celebrated; it’s the warriors themselves. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Lee should have been hanged. I would be in favor of honoring his execution. Was the South not sufficiently devastated in losing the war, that you demand more blood be spilt? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/49 "2013-10-01T14:28:50Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Was the South not sufficiently devastated in losing the war, that you demand more blood be spilt? I don’t think spilling more blood would have helped, but more should have been done to change the South. It was governed, essentially, as a brutal, oppressive, white supremacist region for nearly a hundred years after the Civil War. It wasn’t as bad as slavery, but it was pretty bad. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/50 "2013-10-01T14:30:11Z")
Evidently **Acsenray** would prefer that racial and sectional strife go on _forever_, instead of merely a very, very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/51 "2013-10-01T14:31:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think spilling more blood would have helped, but more should have been done to change the South. It was governed, essentially, as a brutal, oppressive, white supremacist region for nearly a hundred years after the Civil War. It wasn’t as bad as slavery, but it was pretty bad. The presidential elections that immediately followed the war (1868 and 1872) traded away the progress of Reconstruction for the election. Once the US leadership had abandoned the South to its former masters, nothing else could result. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/52 "2013-10-01T14:38:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think spilling more blood would have helped, but more should have been done to change the South. It was governed, essentially, as a brutal, oppressive, white supremacist region for nearly a hundred years after the Civil War. It wasn’t as bad as slavery, but it was pretty bad. Yes, it was, but that was not the result of failing to execute Confederate leaders, and doing that wouldn’t have benefited anyone or anything. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/53 "2013-10-01T14:56:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > In Virginia, we celebrate Memorial Day and Veteran’s Day, along with Jackson and Lee Day. If you can’t find time to sing the praises of Great Great Great Grandpa Abner during these three days or the other 362 days of the year, something is wrong with you. In Virginia, Confederate Memorial Day officially takes place on original-recipe Memorial Day. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/54 "2013-10-02T04:27:08Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > One day you’ll figure out the difference. I won’t be holding my breath. Please, explain how they differ from Wehrmacht soldiers and Confederate soldiers. I have no romantic ideas about their valor in a lost cause. In fact, I detest them and do not wish a dime of our governments’ money nor a moment of our governments’ time wasted on their memory. They are the creepy uncles of our nation’s history and should be swept out like the trash they were and forgotten. > [@](#): > > I think the political dichotomy has reached nonsense level when some half-wit can seriously suggest that saying dead soldiers are worthy of respect is the mark of a namby-pamby liberal. > > You keep using these words. I don’t think any of them mean what you think they do. Bro. No, it is you that misunderstands. It is the anti-American rightwingers who promote Confederate ancestor worship and attempt to bully us into silence because they think we are all namby-pamby panty waists who will faint when we are spoken to loudly. They forget that, in its heart, the American Civil War was between the conservatives of the South and the liberals of the North, and that the Confederacy was not only beaten by a superior military but also ministers, former slaves, and women who changed public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/55 "2013-10-02T05:57:01Z")
We could celebrate two National Traitor and Enemy Combatant days, one for those enemies of the US who stood for demonstrably bigoted ends and the other for those who did not. All have virtue to a degree after all. So on one day we’d celebrate the common soldiers of Hitler and Pol Pot as well as slaver defenders and on the other day we’d salute Benedict Arnold and enemy combatants in Mexico and the Philippines. Sure, not all of them would be American, but again that doesn’t mean they don’t possess some degree of virtue. We could all use a couple of extra holidays, right? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/56 "2013-10-02T06:56:20Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > We could all use a couple of extra holidays, right? Right. Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/57 "2013-10-02T13:24:51Z")
[rant on] > [@Human\_Action](#): > > So long as there is a warrior caste, they will be venerated. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Veneration of a warrior caste goes back to pre-modern times. And it BELONGS in premodern times. Keep it there. * * * “Warrior Caste”\*\*\*?? Really? Warrior &^%$# Caste? “Veneration”??? No. A million times no. Not in America. American soldiers are NOT a Warrior Caste. They are and have been the children of farmers and storekeepers and seamstresses and shop mechanics and nurses. Our neighbors. Ourselves. It’s Joe and Jane from the school graduation class picture. Venerated Warrior Caste? Not in America. Certainly not in the 21st Century. Not in EARTH in the 21st Century for God’s sake. Honor for the dignity of those who serve, of the veteran, and specially of the fallen fighter is righteous. _ **Idolatry** _ is not. Venerated Warrior Castes grow to believe themselves endowed with the right to be the ones in charge and prevent the people from making mistakes. THE PEOPLE grow to believe the Venerated Warrior Caste knows better. Until the bayonets turn on them. The fallen fighters who had to fight a doomed struggle for an ultimately wrong, unworthy cause are due the proper solemnity of commemoration. But not to be used as instruments for others to express that they are proud they stood for that wrong, unworthy cause. Sherman left the job half-assed unfinished. [rant off] Sorry, it just got me too riled…:o ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/58 "2013-10-02T13:28:15Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Please, explain how they differ from Wehrmacht soldiers and Confederate soldiers. For a start, the Wehrmacht and Confederate Army were uniformed regulars, who fought other uniformed regulars in accord with the laws of warfare of the time. The 9/11 hijackers were irregular terrorists who attacked civilians. > [@dropzone](#): > > I have no romantic ideas about their valor in a lost cause. Well, there you are, then. If you don’t think valor in and of itself is worth celebrating, so be it. Others disagree. > [@Measure for Measure](#): > > We could celebrate two National Traitor and Enemy Combatant days, one for those enemies of the US who stood for demonstrably bigoted ends and the other for those who did not. All have virtue to a degree after all. > > So on one day we’d celebrate the common soldiers of Hitler and Pol Pot as well as slaver defenders and on the other day we’d salute Benedict Arnold and enemy combatants in Mexico and the Philippines. Sure, not all of them would be American, but again that doesn’t mean they don’t possess some degree of virtue. > > We could all use a couple of extra holidays, right? What a strange perspective. It’s like you don’t understand humans at all. Do you really expect a region to bury about 300,000 of their young men and do nothing to commemorate them? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/59 "2013-10-02T13:39:07Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > [rant on] > > And it BELONGS in premodern times. Keep it there. Hey, good luck with that. > [@](#): > > * * * > > “Warrior Caste”\*\*\*?? Really? > Warrior &^%$# Caste? “Veneration”??? > > No. A million times no. Not in America. You don’t think the military in America is venerated? It sure seems that way to me. > [@](#): > > American soldiers are NOT a Warrior Caste. They are and have been the children of farmers and storekeepers and seamstresses and shop mechanics and nurses. Our neighbors. Ourselves. It’s Joe and Jane from the school graduation class picture. And yet, no one’s building memorials for farmers and storekeepers or seamstresses in comparable numbers. Clearly, soldiers are special in _some_ way. > [@](#): > > Venerated Warrior Caste? > Not in America. Certainly not in the 21st Century. > Not in EARTH in the 21st Century for God’s sake. > Honor for the dignity of those who serve, of the veteran, and specially of the fallen fighter is righteous. _ **Idolatry** _ is not. > > Venerated Warrior Castes grow to believe themselves endowed with the right to be the ones in charge and prevent the people from making mistakes. THE PEOPLE grow to believe the Venerated Warrior Caste knows better. Until the bayonets turn on them. > The fallen fighters who had to fight a doomed struggle for an ultimately wrong, unworthy cause are due the proper solemnity of commemoration. But not to be used as instruments for others to express that they are proud they stood for that wrong, unworthy cause. > > Sherman left the job half-assed unfinished. > > [rant off] > > Sorry, it just got me too riled…:o I think you mistook my point…that urge to venerate warriors clearly _exists_. Perhaps it’s hardwired in some way, or perhaps societies that didn’t practice it were wiped out by those who did, and were thus able to get more young men to fight, and fight harder. So, if you ask the South to cease honoring their Confederate war dead, you’re fighting upstream against powerful cultural forces. The cause being horrid isn’t enough to overcome those forces. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/60 "2013-10-02T13:58:18Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Please, explain how they differ from Wehrmacht soldiers and Confederate soldiers. You’ve answered your own question, but are too tightly blinkered to see it. You’ve also continued to distort what I’ve said in your running attempt to box in a peculiar meaning of what “memorial” means. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998.md?page=4)