# confederate memorial day **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998 "2013-09-30T13:40:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/121 "2013-10-09T15:19:27Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I could point out Ex-GOP insider unloads: [Blame “neo-Confederate insurrectionists” for shutdown!](http://www.salon.com/2013/10/08/ex_gop_insider_unloads_blame_neo_confederate_insurrectionists_for_shutdown/). He comes across as young and immature, but here ya go: Please detail any “neo-Confederate” rhetoric coming out of the GOP. If they’ve been proposing secession or slavery, I must have missed it. And of course the voters bear responsibility; but not Southern voters in particular. I can keep linking to the map if you need me to. > [@Try2B Comprehensive](#): > > He echoes my point that we ought to bring the shutdown to the people responsible. He does? Where? > [@Try2B Comprehensive](#): > > Those parts are going to be _your_ responsibility. The Representative for my district is the tolerable [Andy Barr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Barr_(American_politician)), who got my vote. I’ve done my part. > [@Try2B Comprehensive](#): > > Well, I’d rather lose an argument than be the guy that got specific about the schematic of that argument. Others have done it though, and you could find better things to read IMHO. So, you won’t or can’t link Jackson’s comments to your claim that opposition to the ACA and Medicaid expansion is caused by a desire to “keep down” minorities? > [@Try2B Comprehensive](#): > > I’d be more impressed if he mentioned the deliberate imprisonment of minorities. That’s not germaine to his remarks about black children not being raised in two parent, monogamous families. > [@Try2B Comprehensive](#): > > I don’t think they got to choose their circumstances or consequences, but overall I’d say they chose ‘life’. Everyone gets to choose consequences when they are readily foreseeable. The consequences of having children out of wedlock, particularly as a teen, are quite foreseeable: poverty. This is a problem, and confronting it is a fine and noble cause. > [@Try2B Comprehensive](#): > > I don’t think E.W.'s remarks can really be defended. Slavery had to go. Benefits aren’t about race, they are only exaggeratedly portrayed that way. The spirit of his remarks - intact families are important, and the lack of them is harming the community of which he speaks - are easily defended. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/122 "2013-10-10T05:49:14Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Please detail any “neo-Confederate” rhetoric coming out of the GOP. If they’ve been proposing secession or slavery, I must have missed it. Fine. I’m convinced you don’t see what I’m driving at. I’m going to ask that you take a look at John Calhoun’s [“South Carolina Exposition and Protest”](http://www.teachingushistory.org/documents/expositionandprotest.pdf) in which the basic theory of nullification is laid out. This, in effect, is the tactic today’s GOP is following. Will they take it all the way to secession? I doubt it, but who knows, these guys’ capacity for fighting settled battles seems inexhaustible. > [@](#): > > And of course the voters bear responsibility; but not Southern voters in particular. I can keep linking to the map if you need me to. When there is a relevant distinction between the voting behavior of the GOP in Congress at large and the Tea Party in particular, I will recognize a distinction. As it stands, this is literally a distinction without a difference. > [@](#): > > The Representative for my district is the tolerable [Andy Barr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Barr_(American_politician)), who got my vote. I’ve done my part. I’m not familiar with Barr. For all I know he could be allright (my beef is not really with the GOP, but with elected morons). Did he vote for this shutdown? Would he vote to end it? As it stands, my targeting of the South remains in place regardless. > [@](#): > > So, you won’t or can’t link Jackson’s comments to your claim that opposition to the ACA and Medicaid expansion is caused by a desire to “keep down” minorities? Well I’m sorry but I thought that point was self-evident. If a guy gets up in front of a crowd and says that Medicare is worse than slavery, in a place where poor black people have the most to gain or lose based on how Medicare plays out, how is that not an attempt to “keep down” minorities? It certainly seems clear to me, but ya never know I suppose… > [@](#): > > That’s not germaine to his remarks about black children not being raised in two parent, monogamous families. The hell it isn’t. Let me quote you some numbers from the August _Harper’s Index_: > [@](#): > > Chance an African-American child has an incarcerated parent: 1 in 9 > [@](#): > > Factor by which the average white U.S. family was wealthier than the average non-white U.S. family before the recession: 4 > Factor by which it is now: 6 And from the September _Index_: > [@](#): > > Percentage of all private U.S. assets owned by white or Asian Americans: 99 > Percentage of black and white Americans, respectively, who use marijuana: 14, 12 > Factor by which a black American is more likely than a white American to be arrested for marijuana possession: 3.7 Under the circumstances, it appears unseemly to blame black individuals’ character flaws for the problems cited by E. W. Jackson when there are such obvious external forces in play. If you’re really into family values, you would support a genuine safety net for the poor, affordable insurance if a national health care plan isn’t possible, stronger unions, a higher minimum wage, and other reforms that promote social stability- the foundation of family stability- instead of some cockamamie GOP economic philosophy fantasy that tilts crazily in the opposite direction. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/123 "2013-10-10T13:57:32Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Fine. I’m convinced you don’t see what I’m driving at. I’m going to ask that you take a look at John Calhoun’s [“South Carolina Exposition and Protest”](http://www.teachingushistory.org/documents/expositionandprotest.pdf) in which the basic theory of nullification is laid out. This, in effect, is the tactic today’s GOP is following. Will they take it all the way to secession? I doubt it, but who knows, these guys’ capacity for fighting settled battles seems inexhaustible. I sure don’t. The 1832 South Carolina Nullification crisis isn’t a Confederate anything, as it pre-dates the Confederacy, and was confined to South Carolina. Today’s GOP is _not_ nullifying anything: the ability to opt-out of the Medicaid expansion comes from the Supreme Court ruling on the ACA, and the government shutdown can’t be said to be nullification as it’s occuring at the federal level and has nothing to do with states illegally refusing to implement a federal law. Even if the opt-out _was_ nullification, you’d have to explain to Idaho, Montana, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Utah, Nebraska, South Dakota, Kansas, Maine, Missouri, Alaska, and New Hampshire how their position was “neo-Confederate”. Good luck with that. [QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive] When there is a relevant distinction between the voting behavior of the GOP in Congress at large and the Tea Party in particular, I will recognize a distinction. As it stands, this is literally a distinction without a difference. [/quote] Once again: Southern Republican Representatives: 110 Non-Southern Republican Represenatives: 124 Southern “Red States”: 12 Non-Southern “Red States”: 12 [QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive] I’m not familiar with Barr. For all I know he could be allright (my beef is not really with the GOP, but with elected morons). Did he vote for this shutdown? Would he vote to end it? As it stands, my targeting of the South remains in place regardless. [/quote] He is part of the shutdown gang, yes, though he advocates a short-term resolution to fund the government on the condition that negotiations with the Senate and President continue. [QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive] Well I’m sorry but I thought that point was self-evident. If a guy gets up in front of a crowd and says that Medicare is worse than slavery, in a place where poor black people have the most to gain or lose based on how Medicare plays out, how is that not an attempt to “keep down” minorities? It certainly seems clear to me, but ya never know I suppose… [/quote] For one, he didn’t say anything about Medicare or Medicaid in particular. Given that his remark was: > [@](#): > > It made it difficult but I’ll tell you that the programs that began in the ‘60s, the programs that began to tell women that “you don’t need a man in the home, the government will take care of you,” that and began to tell men, “you don’t need to be in the home, the government will take care of this woman and take care of these children.” That’s when the black family began to deteriorate. That doesn’t describe Medicaid, so much as it describes welfare: an income stream that allows single mothers to get by without a husband, and to choose partners on the basis of attraction or what-have-you instead of long-term outlook as a provider. Of course, AFDC is actually from the New Deal, not the Great Society, so either Jackson’s wrong or I’m misinterpreting him. For two, he doesn’t say that Medicaid is worse than slavery, full stop. He says: > [@](#): > > In 1960 most black children were raised in two parent, monogamous families. By now, by this time, we have only 20% of black children being raised in two parent, monogamous families with a married man and woman raising those children. It wasn’t slavery that did that, it was government that did that, trying to solve problems that only God can solve and that only we as human beings can solve. He says these programs, and not slavery, are responsible for the decline in two-parent, monogamous families in the black community observable from the late '60s to today. He could be wrong (though I don’t think he’s wrong to say slavery isn’t directly responsible, since before the '60s the rate of out-of-wedlock births was much [lower](http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/09/marriage-america-s-greatest-weapon-against-child-poverty), about 15% of all births in 1930, vs. 30% in the late '60s and 70% in the mid-90s. _Something_ changed in the '60s, a hundred years after slavery ended, so it’s hard to attribute that shift to slavery. Whether it’s the result of government programs or not, I don’t have the data to say, (there are rival theories, such as Pinker’s "Decivilizing Process) but it could have played a role by changing the incentives for women in choosing partners, as noted above. > [@Try2B Comprehensive](#): > > The hell it isn’t. Let me quote you some numbers from the August _Harper’s Index_: > And from the September _Index_: > > Under the circumstances, it appears unseemly to blame black individuals’ character flaws for the problems cited by E. W. Jackson when there are such obvious external forces in play. If Jackson’s 20% figure is correct, then the 1-in-9 number isn’t solely responsible, now is it? Look at the near-70% out-of-wedlock birth rate for a better explanation. Further, if one wishes to avoid being imprisoned for marijuana use, there’s a simple remedy: stop using or possessing marijuana, an illegal drug. Yes, it’s a serious problem that enforcement is disproportionately targeted at black folks, but black folks aren’t passive victims unable to control themselves or better their situation, they are people just like any other. The external factors include a culture that doesn’t value the attributes needed to succeed in a modern society and keep out of poverty as much as other cultures do. That can be, and needs to be, addressed at the same time as police issues. There’s not one simple remedy here. > [@Try2B Comprehensive](#): > > If you’re really into family values, you would support a genuine safety net for the poor, affordable insurance if a national health care plan isn’t possible, stronger unions, a higher minimum wage, and other reforms that promote social stability- the foundation of family stability- instead of some cockamamie GOP economic philosophy fantasy that tilts crazily in the opposite direction. Those ideas have value, sure. But the devil’s always in the details. Well-meaning programs can and have had adverse consequences, if they create perverse incentives or have unintended consequences. Unconditionally supporting your platform there is as reckless as unconditionally opposing it. Also, there must be cultural factors at work as well, because lower rates of out-of-wedlock births, for instance, pre-date those programs and reforms. Not every problem can be fixed by the government, or at least not by the government alone. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/124 "2013-10-14T14:17:56Z")
Didn’t mean to drop out, I just get swallowed up by other things. I’ll try to get to the rest later. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > I sure don’t. The 1832 South Carolina Nullification crisis isn’t a Confederate anything, as it pre-dates the Confederacy, and was confined to South Carolina. Today’s GOP is _not_ nullifying anything: the ability to opt-out of the Medicaid expansion comes from the Supreme Court ruling on the ACA, and the government shutdown can’t be said to be nullification as it’s occuring at the federal level and has nothing to do with states illegally refusing to implement a federal law. It is part of the basis of the Confederate way of doing things, and one crisis in a string of crises that ultimately led to the Civil War (and which continued through Reconstruction, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights era, and, yes, the debt ceiling showdown). Bloomberg has a nice [article](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-08/tea-party-tactics-lead-straight-back-to-secession.html) about it, though I think they’re wrong when they say all this was sparked by the ACA- I think it starts with Obama’s election. > [@](#): > > Even if the opt-out _was_ nullification, you’d have to explain to Idaho, Montana, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Utah, Nebraska, South Dakota, Kansas, Maine, Missouri, Alaska, and New Hampshire how their position was “neo-Confederate”. Good luck with that. > > Once again: > > Southern Republican Representatives: 110 > Non-Southern Republican Represenatives: 124 > > Southern “Red States”: 12 > Non-Southern “Red States”: 12 Nope, this is a Southern phenomenon, even if they have satellites elsewhere. See [The Tea Party, the debt ceiling, and white Southern extremism.](http://www.salon.com/2011/08/02/lind_tea_party/) 63% of the Tea Party caucus hails from the South, dwarfing the representation from any other region. > [@](#): > > The four states with the most Tea Party representatives in Congress are all former members of the Confederate States of America. The states with the greatest number of members of the House Tea Party caucus are Texas (12), Florida (7), Louisiana (5) and Georgia (5). > [@](#): > > the sixth, seventh and eighth places on the list are taken by two former Southern slave states, South Carolina and Tennessee, and a border state, Missouri, each with three members of the congressional Tea Party caucus. As for other states you mention: > [@](#): > > If states with significant white Southern diasporas were included, the Southern proportion of the House Tea Party caucus would be even bigger. What I’m driving at is that every day of the shutdown/debt ceiling crisis (and for the GOP, every day since Obama’s election) is something like Confederate Memorial Day. See [The South is holding America hostage](http://www.salon.com/2013/10/13/the_south_is_holding_america_hostage/). I’d like to trace out for you the sting of historical events, starting from clashes between Madison and Calhoun, through the Civil War, up to the present day, which make up a single, coherent phenomenon that can be fairly described as “Neo-Confederate”. For now though, I am afraid I’m doing a sloppy job. I just don’t have enough time, I’m sorry. I’ll be back to try and nail it down some more and respond to your other points. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/125 "2013-10-15T12:35:02Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Didn’t mean to drop out, I just get swallowed up by other things. I’ll try to get to the rest later. > > It is part of the basis of the Confederate way of doing things, and one crisis in a string of crises that ultimately led to the Civil War (and which continued through Reconstruction, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights era, and, yes, the debt ceiling showdown). Bloomberg has a nice [article](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-08/tea-party-tactics-lead-straight-back-to-secession.html) about it, though I think they’re wrong when they say all this was sparked by the ACA- I think it starts with Obama’s election. > Nope, this is a Southern phenomenon, even if they have satellites elsewhere. See [The Tea Party, the debt ceiling, and white Southern extremism.](http://www.salon.com/2011/08/02/lind_tea_party/) 63% of the Tea Party caucus hails from the South, dwarfing the representation from any other region. > As for other states you mention: > What I’m driving at is that every day of the shutdown/debt ceiling crisis (and for the GOP, every day since Obama’s election) is something like Confederate Memorial Day. See [The South is holding America hostage](http://www.salon.com/2013/10/13/the_south_is_holding_america_hostage/). I’d like to trace out for you the sting of historical events, starting from clashes between Madison and Calhoun, through the Civil War, up to the present day, which make up a single, coherent phenomenon that can be fairly described as “Neo-Confederate”. > > For now though, I am afraid I’m doing a sloppy job. I just don’t have enough time, I’m sorry. I’ll be back to try and nail it down some more and respond to your other points. Ah, Michael Lind. That explains a lot. He’s never one to led nuance or inconvenient facts get in the way of a good narrative, especially a polarizing, eyeball-grabbing narrative. Notice his telling reliance upon the makeup of the Tea Party caucus, which a) doesn’t even make his point, 63% doesn’t make it a Southern phenomenon, no matter how badly certain folks _want_ it to be a Southern phenomenon (Confederate-baiting is the new red-baiting), and b) is misleading. The Tea Party is a Republican phenomenon, and it’s strongest wherever Republicans are strongest. Look at the [electoral college map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ElectoralCollege2012.svg). Non-Southern bastions like Kansas and Nebraska send fewer Representatives to Congress than their Southern peers, because their population is smaller. Wyoming could be 100% in the bag for the Tea Party, but they still only elect two Senators and one Representative. Georgia, will two Senators and 14 Representatives, can exceed that figure even if it had fewer Tea Party-dominant districts. Yeesh. Is this what political discourse has come to in this country? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/126 "2013-10-16T05:29:08Z")
Kind of an ad-hominem style response, no? But ok, if you can’t accept Lind, let’s discuss it from [here](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-11/obamacare-foes-using-shutdown-echo-south-s-nullifiers.html): > [@](#): > > Mihm said today’s fight has a parallel in the nullification movement of the 1830s when John C. Calhoun, who had resigned the vice presidency to run for the U.S. Senate in South Carolina, devised a strategy to oppose a tariff that he said hit the South unfairly. If the state legislature passed a law that refuted the federal one, the state could ignore it based on what he called a “concurrent majority.” > President Andrew Jackson eventually interceded and thwarted the nullification movement. Had it gone forward, Mihm said, it may have led to the breakup of the Union before the Civil War. > Now, he said, those who want to stop Obamacare “are trying to find another way to nullify that poses a much graver threat, but not to the law,” Mihm said, referring to a possible failure to raise the nation’s debt ceiling. > “Our debt is something we all, every one of us, are on the hook for,” he said. “And the idea that you can take that and make that a bargaining chip is very similar to the idea of the nullifiers.” Read the whole thing. Let’s talk about this. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/127 "2013-10-16T09:08:49Z")
I hope that I haven’t overlooked someone else’s post of the 2012 election results according to population density: > **[Latest Political News & Articles | Observer](https://observer.com/politics/)** > > Observer covers the most current political news and political opinion articles, including local, national, and international politics. Notice that in Deep South there is a wide trail of blue that meanders across Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina. Do you think everyone in the blue sections are African-American? The blue doesn’t show up so much in Tennessee, but it certainly isn’t red except in the far eastern part of the state. Tennessee’s two largest cities supported Obama in 2008 and 2012 – Memphis and Nashville. I think that one thing some of you forget is the ethnic origins of a large percentage of the South. In Nashville, the white population is slightly below two-thirds. African-Americans are around twenty-five percent of the population. One in every ten people does not fit into either category. That’s a lot of diversity for one area which some would describe as “neo-Confederate.” We don’t allow a handful of lunatics demonstrating in Washington or even one person with a Confederate flag to speak for our state. We are individuals. Anyone know what state the kid with the Confederate battle flag came from? It really doesn’t matter. He is one person and he doesn’t represent his own state nor a section of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/128 "2013-10-16T12:19:11Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Kind of an ad-hominem style response, no? No. I spent one sentence bashing Lind, then the rest of the paragraph addressing his point. [QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive] But ok, if you can’t accept Lind, let’s discuss it from [here](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-11/obamacare-foes-using-shutdown-echo-south-s-nullifiers.html): Read the whole thing. Let’s talk about this. [/QUOTE] Yes, let’s. That article actually gets at the real divide: > [@](#): > > It also now includes Western states, “with strong libertarian strains,” said Mihm, who is a contributor to Bloomberg View. “It doesn’t map exactly.” > > The divide also can be seen as part of the growing split between the views of Americans in urban and rural areas. That’s the reality of what’s going on, and it explains why this supposedly “neo-Confederate” phenomenon includes so many states that were not part of the Confederacy and share no common culture with the former Confederate states, other than being more rural than urban, something that neither Lind nor yourself have been able to account for. And, again: nullification was illegal. Haggling over the budget is not. The duly elected Representatives in the House are free to work toward whatever budget they feel benefits their constituents and the nation. You can disagree with the Republican position, as I do, but it’s got nothing in common with a state illegally refusing to enforce a federal law. I often hear Northerners complaining that the South needs to let go of the Civil War, and yet every time the South does something they disapprove of, suddenly half the articles about it mention the Civil War and disparage the current Southern position as echoing the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/129 "2013-10-16T12:42:43Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I often hear Northerners complaining that the South needs to let go of the Civil War, and yet every time the South does something they disapprove of, suddenly half the articles about it mention the Civil War and disparage the current Southern position as echoing the Confederacy. I’m partly in agreement with your overall point, but as some of the recent protests show, at nearly every Tea Party and allied demonstration against Obama there’s a few folks waving Confederate flags. This is a recurring problem. The Republicans and Tea Party supporters generally brush this off and say that’s just a few fringe elements, or it’s just not a big deal at all. They really ought to have a zero-tolerance policy for it- Rebel Flag-wavers should be completely unwelcome at Republican and Tea Party events… as long as they’re welcome to come along, it’s reasonable to assume that organizers are at least OK with being allied with flag-wavers. Waving the Rebel Flag should get the same response as waving a swastika flag- it should just be unacceptable. That symbol needs to die, and the Republicans and conservative Southerners need to kill it. As long as it continues to show up, those groups are going to be associated with the Confederacy, and therefore, associated with brutal oppression. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/130 "2013-10-16T13:16:28Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I’ve never heard of it in Tennessee. I’ve lived here 70 years. Must not be much publicity for it. We were already out of school by June 3. Most Southerners were. It’s not a state holiday. And Tennessee is not “Deep South.” It’s known as the “Mid-South.” > > I wish it were “Deep South.” There are lovely traditions and advantages associated with the cultures of states further south. I’m in Texas, and I can’t ever recall celebrating this day. Nor is it a state holiday here. And this is supposedly the deepest south… ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/131 "2013-10-16T13:34:41Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I hope that I haven’t overlooked someone else’s post of the 2012 election results according to population density: > > [Latest Political News & Articles | Observer](http://politicker.com/2012/11/the-purple-election-map/) > > Notice that in Deep South there is a wide trail of blue that meanders across Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina. Do you think everyone in the blue sections are African-American? > > The blue doesn’t show up so much in Tennessee, but it certainly isn’t red except in the far eastern part of the state. Tennessee’s two largest cities supported Obama in 2008 and 2012 – Memphis and Nashville. > > I think that one thing some of you forget is the ethnic origins of a large percentage of the South. > > In Nashville, the white population is slightly below two-thirds. African-Americans are around twenty-five percent of the population. One in every ten people does not fit into either category. That’s a lot of diversity for one area which some would describe as “neo-Confederate.” > > We don’t allow a handful of lunatics demonstrating in Washington or even one person with a Confederate flag to speak for our state. We are individuals. > > Anyone know what state the kid with the Confederate battle flag came from? It really doesn’t matter. He is one person and he doesn’t represent his own state nor a section of the country. And in Kentucky, Louisville and Lexington are visible as deep blue blobs in a sea of red. Louisville is in the 3rd District, represented by a Democrat. The rest of the state is represented by Republicans. Or, look at Arkansas on the above-linked map, and compare it to [this map of population density.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arkansas_population_map.png) The densest areas, Little Rock and Fayetteville, are the blue spots. **Zoe** pointed out how Tennessee follows the same pattern: blue cities, red countryside. It’s rural vs. urban, folks, not North vs. South. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m partly in agreement with your overall point, but as some of the recent protests show, at nearly every Tea Party and allied demonstration against Obama there’s a few folks waving Confederate flags. This is a recurring problem. The Republicans and Tea Party supporters generally brush this off and say that’s just a few fringe elements, or it’s just not a big deal at all. They really ought to have a zero-tolerance policy for it- Rebel Flag-wavers should be completely unwelcome at Republican and Tea Party events… as long as they’re welcome to come along, it’s reasonable to assume that organizers are at least OK with being allied with flag-wavers. > > Waving the Rebel Flag should get the same response as waving a swastika flag- it should just be unacceptable. That symbol needs to die, and the Republicans and conservative Southerners need to kill it. As long as it continues to show up, those groups are going to be associated with the Confederacy, and therefore, associated with brutal oppression. Sure, but there’s a lot of inertia to overcome. It’d hard to do away with something that’s not seen as a problem by the people doing it. It’s certainly do-able though, there was plenty of inertia in the way of stopping casual sexual harassment or use of racial slurs, and they’ve waned considerably. If there was a new symbol that could be phased in, it’d be helpful. > [@Kearsen](#): > > I’m in Texas, and I can’t ever recall celebrating this day. Nor is it a state holiday here. And this is supposedly the deepest south… It’s on the books in Kentucky, but I’ve never heard of it actually being celebrated. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/132 "2013-10-16T13:56:25Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Sure, but there’s a lot of inertia to overcome. It’d hard to do away with something that’s not seen as a problem by the people doing it. It’s certainly do-able though, there was plenty of inertia in the way of stopping casual sexual harassment or use of racial slurs, and they’ve waned considerably. If there was a new symbol that could be phased in, it’d be helpful. So far they’re not even trying- at least not those in power. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/133 "2013-10-16T14:25:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So far they’re not even trying- at least not those in power. Well, sure - why risk alienating the base, and being replaced by a new leader who doesn’t threaten a cherished symbol? There’s nothing to gain and plenty to lose. It’s symbolic in it’s own way of the problems the Republican Party faces nationally: there’s enough extremists to knock moderate candidates out of primaries, but not enough to win the Presidency. So, the Republican candidates are fighting over the lunatic fringe instead of building a coalition and reaching out to moderate and right-leaning Democrats like Reagan did. In this sort of climate, no one will risk going after the stars and bars, that’s a ticket to being labelled a RINO and booted in the next primary. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/134 "2013-10-17T06:22:05Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I hope that I haven’t overlooked someone else’s post of the 2012 election results according to population density: > > [Latest Political News & Articles | Observer](http://politicker.com/2012/11/the-purple-election-map/) > > Notice that in Deep South there is a wide trail of blue that meanders across Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina. Do you think everyone in the blue sections are African-American? If you believe the paper I linked to upthread (which I haven’t read) the South would look a lot like the rest of the country if you reversed the 1860 incidence of slavery on a county-by-county basis. As for the yahoo waving the confederate flag in front of the White House, [Ta-Nehisi Coates](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/280559/) argues that, “The behavior of such idiots, while alarming, should not necessarily be taken as an indicator of the aims and thrust of the protest. On the contrary, it is not so much the behavior of the lone idiot that matters—but the tenor of the crowd around him.” And the crowd I assume came from all over. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’m hardly unbiased, but I think the [flag of Kentucky](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Kentucky.svg) is flippin’ gorgeous, and near-perfect. I had never looked closely at the Kentucky flag. I have to concur: it achieves awesome. Back to the thread: Setting aside what the confederate flag meant to those who resurrected it during the 1950s, I’m somewhat dubious about the necessity of a trans-southern symbol. Now it might be expected. But let’s recall that no other region of the country feels similarly tribalistic - though I concede some states do (Texas, Hawaii, Louisiana and the territory of Puerto Rico come to mind). In a way I could understand Mississippi, Alabama and Arkansas having a chip on their shoulder as they are the poorest three states in the union. But Virginia and North Carolina both have high tech corridors. Atlanta is the city that’s too busy to hate. Florida is weird, but it’s also a fairly interesting place -pretty diverse really. Meanwhile, the Yankee bluebloods have completely fallen from power. Look, I get that there’s a Southern identity. But a lot of the underpinnings are slipping away, not least due to the high rates of migration within the US. > [@](#): > > It’s symbolic in it’s own way of the problems the Republican Party faces nationally: there’s enough extremists to knock moderate candidates out of primaries, but not enough to win the Presidency. So, the Republican candidates are fighting over the lunatic fringe instead of building a coalition and reaching out to moderate and right-leaning Democrats like Reagan did. [hijack]All of which is profoundly undemocratic: leaders in a 2 party system should gravitate towards the mainstream, not the squirrelly backwaters. But discuss doing away with the primary system and 90%+ of Americans will balk - it seems undemocratic! Though it also peculiar to the US’s version of democracy. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/135 "2013-10-17T13:31:56Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Back to the thread: > Setting aside what the confederate flag meant to those who resurrected it during the 1950s, I’m somewhat dubious about the necessity of a trans-southern symbol. Now it might be expected. But let’s recall that no other region of the country feels similarly tribalistic - though I concede some states do (Texas, Hawaii, Louisiana and the territory of Puerto Rico come to mind). There’s some degree of that in the [Pacific](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement)) [Northwest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_(Pacific_state)) as well. But, bear in mind that no other region of the country was (with due cause, of course, but still) invaded, burned, and forcibly changed by the rest of the nation. That forges a tribal identity toot-sweet; look how many nationalist movements come out of wars or oppressive occupations. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > In a way I could understand Mississippi, Alabama and Arkansas having a chip on their shoulder as they are the poorest three states in the union. But Virginia and North Carolina both have high tech corridors. Atlanta is the city that’s too busy to hate. Florida is weird, but it’s also a fairly interesting place -pretty diverse really. Meanwhile, the Yankee bluebloods have completely fallen from power. Look, I get that there’s a Southern identity. But a lot of the underpinnings are slipping away, not least due to the high rates of migration within the US. Any new Southern symbol would be for transitional purposes, that is, weening. You’re correct, due to immigration and communications technology, all regional identities are becoming less powerful, both in the U.S. and worldwide. It simply can’t endure without isolation. The good stuff - bourbon, barbecue, roots music, blues, fried chicken, hospitality, pretty girls in sun dresses - endures and spreads to the rest of the nation, the bad stuff will fall away as tribalism grows weaker. We’re seeing it already, with Southern cities voting the same way Northern cities do, and Southern countrysides voting the same way other rural areas do. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > [hijack]All of which is profoundly undemocratic: leaders in a 2 party system should gravitate towards the mainstream, not the squirrelly backwaters. But discuss doing away with the primary system and 90%+ of Americans will balk - it seems undemocratic! Though it also peculiar to the US’s version of democracy. [/hijack] For the Presidency, at least, the Democrats have elected consecutive moderate centrists, so it’s working there. It’ll work for the Republicans once the civil war within the party is resolved in the next decade or so. Congress is a different animal, and the House especially, due to gerrymandered districts. Not sure when we’ll get our Blue Dog Democrats and Rockefeller Republicans back. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/136 "2013-10-17T13:37:52Z")
There’s a New England regional identity, though the closest it has to an emblem is a Red Sox logo. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/137 "2013-10-17T15:02:26Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Setting aside what the confederate flag meant to those who **resurrected it during the 1950s** … [This has come up before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9908222&postcount=270), but it is a myth that the Confederate flag was “resurrected” in the 1950s. It had been around all along as a generic symbol of “Dixie.” As I noted in that earlier thread, > [@Spoke](#): > > …[The Confederate flag] showed up in advertising and marketing: [Here’s the Dixie Oil logo (pre-Civil-Rights-era).](http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/rick_primeau/2004/dec/southern-dixie-truck-motor-oil.jpg) [Here’s another variant of that logo.](http://images.goantiques.com/thumbnails/PVN9311/PVN9311242272.jpg) And Dixie Crystals Sugar Company used a [stylized rebel flag](http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/cw-usa/brands-dixiecrystals.jpg) for its logo for many decades, pre-dating the Civil Rights era. The flag was carried into combat by several units during World War II. [Wiki cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#20th_century_popularity) > > What happened during the desegregation era was not that the flag _reappeared_, but rather that it was seized upon by some as a symbol of resistance to federal authority in general and desegregation in particular. > > By the 70s, it had (for _most folks who displayed it_) again become a pretty innocuous symbol of either (a)Southern identity or (b)generalized rebellion (see, for example, its brief appearance in _Animal House_). It was available for purchase as a patch for your jeans in childrens’ comic books… > > …Beginning in the late 80s, you started hearing people complaining about the flag, and in particular its display on statehouse grounds. (That came to a head with the fight over the flag in South Carolina, and the removal of the emblem from the Georgia state flag.) > > By this point even most older white Southerners have become so sensitized to the flag and how it is perceived that hardly anybody in these parts displays it. Mostly because it would be _impolite_ to do so. None of that is meant as a defense of displaying the flag, just a correction to the historical record. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/138 "2013-10-17T15:51:59Z")
Thanks for the correction, **Spoke** , but clearly your “in these parts” was for _your_ parts, not the South generally, right? Because I see the flag all the time. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/139 "2013-10-17T18:16:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, sure - why risk alienating the base, and being replaced by a new leader who doesn’t threaten a cherished symbol? Why risk it? Because its wrong, that’s why! The GOP leadership, spineless whelps as they are, need to take a lesson from people like MLK and Rosa Parks, stand up to the crazies, be willing to brave attacks, and do the right thing ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998/140 "2013-10-17T18:37:28Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Why risk it? Because its wrong, that’s why! That’s stating it rather strongly, displaying the Confederate flag isn’t _wrong_, it’s just in poor taste, and counter-productive to the New South. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > The GOP leadership, spineless whelps as they are, need to take a lesson from people like MLK and Rosa Parks, stand up to the crazies, be willing to brave attacks, and do the right thing When it comes to standing up the crazies, the GOP rank-and-file has its hands full. Keeping demonstrations free of Confederate flags is pretty low on the list; as a disaffected Republican, I’m far more concerned with efforts to teach Creationism, mindless opposition to everything the White House endorses, and voter suppression. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorial-day/669998.md?page=8)