# Confederate memorials vs. UK memorials **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 14, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868 "2015-08-14T21:05:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/21 "2015-08-15T21:35:27Z")
> [@Bones\_Daley](#): > > In much the same way that to many in Germany, Hitler is the greatest German of all. Seriously? :dubious: But as long as his name came up I would imagine any statue of Edward VIII might cause a little controversy. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/22 "2015-08-15T21:37:52Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Cromwell’s statue sometimes causes controversy. To many in England, including myself, he’s the greatest Englishman of all, a staunch Republican who crammed monarchy into the dustbin where it belonged. It’s a real shame the parasites came straight back after his death. There are those though, not least the Irish, who found his treatment of opponents a little too harsh. Of course you conveniently ignore Oliver Cromwell’s attempt to start his own dynasty but nominating his son, Richard as successor. Yo also ignore the fact that Parliament invited the King back and it proclaimed that King Charles II had been the lawful monarch ever since the [illegal] execution of Charles I. Effectively they decided that the previous 20 years had never happened. There are many republicans in the UK but they are a small minority. Most people can see that the (more or less) random succession of a Royal Family is a much better alternative than some elected figurehead president. President Blair anyone? Of - to call Cromwell’s treatment of the Irish “a little harsh” is a considerable understatement. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/23 "2015-08-15T21:55:15Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > But as long as his name came up I would imagine any statue of Edward VIII might cause a little controversy. There’s a small number of post boxes out there with an ER VIII imprint on them. That’s about as much of an impact as he made. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/24 "2015-08-15T22:05:05Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > There’s a small number of post boxes out there with an ER VIII imprint on them. That’s about as much of an impact as he made. I was referring to his alleged pro Nazi sympathies. Does the Sir Arthur Harris statue generate any controversy? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/25 "2015-08-15T22:08:19Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I was referring to his alleged pro Nazi sympathies. There’s a small number of post boxes out there with an ER VIII imprint on them. That’s about as much of an impact as he made. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Bones\_Daley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/26 "2015-08-16T00:01:00Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > to call Cromwell’s treatment of the Irish “a little harsh” is a considerable understatement. Let’s not forget his treatment of the Scots as well … on a par with Eisenhower’s treatment of the Germans in the Rhineland concentration camps three centuries later. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/27 "2015-08-16T00:28:41Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > He got done for swinging about on the Cenotaph. That reminds me: IIRC Marat’s monument was his ashes inside a Foucault pendulum at the Pantheon. An interesting monument, but …Marat. The comparison here between UK and CSA has me inspired to put orange traffic cones on the heads of all the Jubilation T Cornpone statues down here, like the Brits do to the the Duke of Wellington. I just wish I had the nerve to follow through. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/28 "2015-08-16T01:15:34Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > There are those though, not least the Irish, who found his treatment of opponents a little too harsh. That’s puting it [mildly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Ireland). > [@madsircool](#): > > Seriously? :dubious: [Siege of Drogheda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Drogheda) > [@](#): > > Some 200 Royalists under Arthur Aston, the garrison commander, had barricaded themselves in Millmount Fort overlooking the south-eastern gate, while the rest of the town was being sacked. Cromwell was wary of trying to storm the fort, which he described as “a place very strong, and of difficult access, being exceeding high, having a good graft, and strongly palisaded”. Parliamentarian colonel, Daniel Axtell, “offered to spare the lives of the governor and the 200 men with him if they surrendered on the promise of their lives, which they did”. > > According to Axtell, the disarmed men were then taken to a windmill and killed about an hour after they had surrendered. Arthur Aston was reportedly beaten to death with his own wooden leg, which the Parliamentarian soldiers believed had gold hidden in it. Cromwell wrote of the incident, “our men getting up to them, were ordered by me to put them all to the sword”. > Another group of about 100 Royalist soldiers sought refuge in the steeple of St Peter’s Church at the northern end of Drogheda. Parliamentarian soldiers led by John Hewson, on Cromwell’s orders, set fire to the church steeple. Around 30 of the defenders were burned to death in the fire and 50 more were killed outside when they fled the flames. (I hate to pull the “I have Irish ancestry” card, but I confess if I ever went to Ireland or Britain, I _might_ have an urge to spit on any statue of that fucker. Because reasons.) ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/29 "2015-08-16T04:27:39Z")
Considering that this happened at roughly the same time as [Thirty Years' War - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War) which was multitudes more destructive (8 million killed), it tends to disprove the links to Hitler. It was horrible as wars could be. But Cromwell was no Hitler. There would otherwise be no more Irish. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/30 "2015-08-16T04:39:21Z")
To be fair, Cromwell is also remembered fondly by Jews (at least by those you are aware of the connection) - not only did he lift the century-old ban on them settling in Britain, he actively worked to rebuild the Jewish community in London. A lot of it was for business and political reasons, true, but he also seemed genuinely sympathetic to their cause. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/31 "2015-08-16T07:40:42Z")
The exhibition at Culloden was heavily biased to the Jacobite side when I visited last year. Without careful inspection you’d never have known that the battle was mainly between Scots. ---
**Author:** ![Bones\_Daley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/32 "2015-08-16T09:19:33Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > But Cromwell was no Hitler. There would otherwise be no more Irish. My initial mention of Hitler was to point out that calling Cromwell the greatest ever Englishman is as absurd as calling Hitler the greatest ever German. You are right … Cromwell was not guilty of attempted genocide, only of mass murder and enslavement … a 17th century Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi … ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/33 "2015-08-16T18:26:02Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > There’s a statue of George Washington in Trafalgar Square, after all. > [@APB](#): > > And the other statue immediately in front of the National Gallery is of James II. The two of them together are as neat an illustration as you could possibly want of just how laid back the British can be about such things. There are couple of differences regarding a comparison to Confederate memorials. Monuments to Lee, Jackson, Stuart, etc., were erected by the survivors/descendants of the people who actually engaged in rebellion. The James II statues was actually erected two years before he was deposed and no one got around to destroying it. The Washington statue was a gift from the state of Virginia during the 1920s (long after any post-rebellion sensitivities had been erased by assistance during WWI). The Brits may, indeed, be less touchy about such monuments, (although no Federal effort to remove Confederate statuary has ever been undertaken and the issues of Jim Crow and Civil Rights have played a role in shaping current discussion). To find a parallel to the Confederate statuary, I suspect that one would have to find a statue of Charles I erected between 1650 and 1658 or a statue of Richard III during the Lancastrian reign. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/34 "2015-08-16T18:41:27Z")
I’ve always thought he would have been an interesting person to meet, along with Shakespeare, Elizabeth I, Pepys, & Newton (a pretty unlikeable character personally, from all accounts). Cromwell’s appearance in Ireland was quite brief and most of the military events were directed by others, notably Ireton. The harshness was much exaggerated, first by Royalists at the time for their own ends, and later by 19th c. Nationalists. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/35 "2015-08-16T19:30:28Z")
> [@Bones\_Daley](#): > > My initial mention of Hitler was to point out that calling Cromwell the greatest ever Englishman is as absurd as calling Hitler the greatest ever German. > > You are right … Cromwell was not guilty of attempted genocide, only of mass murder and enslavement … a 17th century Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi … Cromwell did no worse than was common during that era of warfare. He was just better at it. Cromwell also brought the civil wars to an end. Ending warfare is generally a good thing, even if the actions during it cause much human misery. Many men who are arguably the “greatest” of their nation often have much human misery on their hands. Personally I don’t believe Cromwell is the greatest Englishman. His record as Lord Protector leaves much to be desired. However, in waging war he was simply brutally efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/36 "2015-08-17T00:37:19Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I know that at one time things like this were taken dead seriously in Britain under various treason laws; what’s the situation now? You wouldn’t jokingly say you were an IRA operative. > **[Timeline of dissident republican activity](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-10866072)** > > Details of significant events involving dissident republican activity in Northern Ireland since March 2009. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/37 "2015-08-17T00:48:23Z")
Protestants sometimes say they would fight against the English in the Battle of Bannockburn (and the decades of other skirmishes), for their separation of church and state (So that parishes were not run by head office planted/approved Priests and Bishops.) You can also jokingly say you are a Viking or Danish or Norman invader… Well see the CURRENT royal family are descendants of the Norman invader … William the Conqueror… In 1066 England became a 2nd territory of Normandy, and after that the monarch became King of Normandy AND England… They subsequently lost Normandy, so reverting to being England only… and with a dearth (well literally a death , due to plague) of french speakers, they reverted to English… You can even survive a party dressed as a Nazi… Unless you are a personality the PC crowd will harp on about in the media… You could say you were anti-papist, but note even the Monarch is now allowed to be married to a catholic. (not be catholic themselves though.)… Its PC to be less belligerent to the Catholics. (Back in Northern Ireland, the pro-English still dress in Orange and go on marches to say “not catholic and proud of it.” ) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/38 "2015-08-17T02:23:29Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > You can even survive a party dressed as a Nazi… Unless you are a personality the PC crowd will harp on about in the media… I didn’t know it was “PC” to think imitating the Nazis was bad. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/39 "2015-08-17T02:39:54Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Well see the CURRENT royal family are descendants of the Norman invader … William the Conqueror… Erm… while there might be a VERY indirect line of descent, I’m pretty sure dynastically the Norman kingship is considered long extinct. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868/40 "2015-08-17T10:17:27Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > You could say you were anti-papist, but note even the Monarch is now allowed to be married to a catholic. (not be catholic themselves though.)… Its PC to be less belligerent to the Catholics. (Back in Northern Ireland, the pro-English still dress in Orange and go on marches to say “not catholic and proud of it.” ) Having friends on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland, and being from London, I think I can say with confidence that you are mistaken. Dressing in orange or otherwise dissing Catholics is not necessarily pro-English. In fact, a lot of anti-Catholics despise the English almost as much. Us English are easy to hate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-memorials-vs-uk-memorials/727868.md?page=3)