# Confederate sympathizers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010 "2012-01-10T02:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/21 "2012-01-10T05:59:13Z")
> [@GeddyClaypoolBurton](#): > > What baffles me is why sentiments like these continue even into the 21st century, when the vast majority of current occupants of the Southern U.S. can’t trace their lineage back to the Civil War era and/or want nothing to do with such sentiments? What causes people to be so stubborn and unreasonable? Any ideas? Part of it is just the human condition. There are prejudiced and stupid ideas that have hung around for much, much longer than anything Confederacy-related. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/22 "2012-01-10T06:24:55Z")
I think a lot of it is that many people like to take pride in their regional or family history; but in this case that history is an evil one. So they try to come up with rationalizations or revisions of history to “prove” that their ancestors weren’t as monstrous as history shows them to be. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/23 "2012-01-10T06:26:13Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Germany still has their Neo-Nazis of course, but they are on the fringe of the fringe; you won’t find many swastikas there like you’ll see Confederate flags here. If memory serves, displaying a Nazi flag in Germany is illegal; however, displaying the Confederate flag in the United States of Americfa is considered to be excercising one’s right to free speech. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/24 "2012-01-10T06:36:52Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > If memory serves, displaying a Nazi flag in Germany is illegal; however, displaying the Confederate flag in the United States of Americfa is considered to be excercising one’s right to free speech. Also one’s right to annoy Yankees. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/25 "2012-01-10T06:47:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As did the [Confederate Constitution.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Constitution#Slavery) As did a proposed 13th [amendment](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_Amendment), supported by Abraham Lincoln, that would have protected slavery as an institution. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/26 "2012-01-10T06:50:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I think a lot of it is that many people like to take pride in their regional or family history; but in this case that history is an evil one. So they try to come up with rationalizations or revisions of history to “prove” that their ancestors weren’t as monstrous as history shows them to be. The south has centuries of history to take pride in. Why does it keep focusing on the five worst years of its history? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/27 "2012-01-10T07:03:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The south has centuries of history to take pride in. Why does it keep focusing on the five worst years of its history? Because those years were just the violent culmination of what because its defining feature; the obsession with slavery. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/28 "2012-01-10T07:17:06Z")
I don’t have any evidence so consider this an IMHO answer. My theory is that the continuing sympathy for the Lost Cause is due to the forgiving nature of Reconstruction. The German occupation was less compromising. German leaders had to work with foreigners who uniformly regarded the Nazis as inhuman monsters. They had to deal with that to remain in politics. There were plenty of Northern administrators in the postwar South who viewed Confederates as inhuman traitorous bastards but others did not. And both conquered and conquerors shared a dim view of black Americans. Also there was no other group to put the onus on and Northerners simply did not want to turn Southern society on its head. All Southern leaders were Confederates and Northerners wanted to work with them. That wasn’t possible if Northerners continually rubbed their counterpart’s noses in their shameful past. So former Confederates were required to swear loyalty to the Union but not to admit (to themselves or to others) the depravity of their conduct. Without some other Southerners to blame or the cathartic acceptance of responsibility they were left to defend their actions. And their descendants continue to defend their legacy. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/29 "2012-01-10T07:17:34Z")
The people you see waving around the Confederate flag are probably racists. If you think of the type of people who wave flags, they’re not the people who waste time thinking about an issue. There has been a strain of political thought in the U.S. going back even before the Articles of Confederation, that emphasizes the right to self government. Its not as strong as it was in say 1775, but it exists. If it wasn’t as strong as it was around that time, we wouldn’t have been successful in gaining our independence. Valid comparisons could be drawn between our secession from Britain and the South’s attempted secession from the U.S. Now. If we were never successful in achieving our independence, would that self-governmental strain still be present in American politics? Yes. Would folks fly the “Stars and Stripes” from the back of their pickup? Probably not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/30 "2012-01-10T07:19:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The people you see waving around the Confederate flag are probably racists. Those you see with it painted on their pickup trucks, OTOH, are simply assholes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/31 "2012-01-10T07:20:59Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There has been a strain of political thought in the U.S. going back even before the Articles of Confederation, that emphasizes the right to self government. Which does not equate to local autonomy, states’ rights, etc. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/32 "2012-01-10T07:34:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Which does not equate to local autonomy, states’ rights, etc. Yes it does. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/33 "2012-01-10T12:28:27Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I wonder why the South wasn’t shamed to the core in the way that postwar Germany was shamed by the Holocaust and other Nazi insanity? Not wishing to Godwinize things here mind (before I get flamed), and certainly the levels of evilness involved weren’t exactly what I would call comparable, but I’ve always wondered that. Germany still has their Neo-Nazis of course, but they are on the fringe of the fringe; you won’t find many swastikas there like you’ll see Confederate flags here. I have an idea… like it or not, slavery was legal, had been for hundreds of years, and many livelihoods depended on it. Exterminating jews was never any of those things by any stretch of the imagination. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/34 "2012-01-10T12:29:33Z")
Aw, the Arizona branch of the site is down. ☹ I was hoping to link up with my Confederate brothers and maybe be named a general or something. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/35 "2012-01-10T12:39:56Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > I have an idea… like it or not, slavery was legal, had been for hundreds of years, and many livelihoods depended on it. > > Exterminating jews was never any of those things by any stretch of the imagination. What, you think the Nazis invented pogroms against Jews? Even the word “pogrom” [refers originally](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogram) to massacres of Jews; it’s been a Christian sport for a very long time. The Nazis were just the latest in a long line. And what does it matter if it was legal? I don’t know if the Nazis bothered to make what they were doing legal, but I doubt that “Hey, the Holocaust was legal” would be an argument with much traction. As for “livelihood”; so the monsters profited by their monstrousness. That makes them no less monsters. For that matter, the Nazis _did_ try to profit off of their atrocities; does that make them more forgivable? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/36 "2012-01-10T12:42:09Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > I don’t have any evidence so consider this an IMHO answer. My theory is that the continuing sympathy for the Lost Cause is due to the forgiving nature of Reconstruction. The German occupation was less compromising. German leaders had to work with foreigners who uniformly regarded the Nazis as inhuman monsters. They had to deal with that to remain in politics. > > There were plenty of Northern administrators in the postwar South who viewed Confederates as inhuman traitorous bastards but others did not. And both conquered and conquerors shared a dim view of black Americans. Also there was no other group to put the onus on and Northerners simply did not want to turn Southern society on its head. All Southern leaders were Confederates and Northerners wanted to work with them. That wasn’t possible if Northerners continually rubbed their counterpart’s noses in their shameful past. So former Confederates were required to swear loyalty to the Union but not to admit (to themselves or to others) the depravity of their conduct. Without some other Southerners to blame or the cathartic acceptance of responsibility they were left to defend their actions. And their descendants continue to defend their legacy. I imagine something you’ll very rarely see admitted in the former Allied nations, is that so many prominent people agreed with that Hitler fellow about the Jews, at least at first, and didn’t appreciate that he he _carried it so far_. 'Cause then they had no choice but to confront the nature of the prejudice they themselves were carrying around, and what its logical conclusion would be. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/37 "2012-01-10T12:44:49Z")
No one really cares about agrarianism or history or whatever. It’s about racism. Occam’s razor usually works, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/38 "2012-01-10T12:53:57Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > The German occupation was less compromising. German leaders had to work with foreigners who uniformly regarded the Nazis as inhuman monsters. They had to deal with that to remain in politics. That’s not so. After the Cold War started western occupying powers found it expedient to overlook the pasts of many Germans who were seen as useful for rebuilding and rearming West Germany. Look at, for instance, the attempts by former Waffen-SS (a criminal organization) members to get military pensions after the war. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/39 "2012-01-10T12:55:07Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I wonder why the South wasn’t shamed to the core in the way that postwar Germany was shamed by the Holocaust and other Nazi insanity? Not wishing to Godwinize things here mind (before I get flamed), and certainly the levels of evilness involved weren’t exactly what I would call comparable, but I’ve always wondered that. Germany still has their Neo-Nazis of course, but they are on the fringe of the fringe; you won’t find many swastikas there like you’ll see Confederate flags here. Are you comparing the swastika to the confederate battle banner? What most people call the confederate flag is not nor was not the confederate flag. If you don’t know that, look it up. I can trace my family to the Confederacy; one of my admittedly distant relatives was tortured to death by northern soldiers----the torture is well documented and is beyond denial. I’m fed up with the entire north-south thing. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/40 "2012-01-10T13:05:18Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Yeah, it was shameful when all those Negroes dared to vote as if they were white men! The south didn’t want to behave themselves after the war ended. > > I didn’t see the OP denigrate the south. I’m not referring to the Negroes voting; I’m referring to farms and houses being burned to the ground and I’m referring to southerners not being left with the means to earn a living. The opening of a thread like this one denigrates the south. We go over this confederate is evil stuff time after time; get over it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010.md?page=3)