# Confederate sympathizers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010 "2012-01-10T02:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/41 "2012-01-10T13:07:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > If memory serves, displaying a Nazi flag in Germany is illegal; however, displaying the Confederate flag in the United States of Americfa is considered to be excercising one’s right to free speech. > [@LouisB](#): > > Are you comparing the swastika to the confederate battle banner? Do you know who ELSE compared the swastika to the confederate battle banner? That’s right, I’ve heard that since the Nazi swastika is illegal in Germany, neo-Nazis use the confederate flag as the next best thing. So at least some do see the similarities. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/42 "2012-01-10T13:13:45Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Yeah, that’s a big problem; the north is just fixated on the Civil War. You still see them shamelessly flying the flag that the Union Army marched under. No one said the north is fixated on the civil was; what i said was that the majority of threads on the subject are started by people from the north: Why this is so I don’t know but i believe it is a fact. Plus, one more time, the flag usually called the confederate flag is not and was never a confederate flag; if people insist on referring to it they should at least get it right: It was a battle standard and not an official flag of the confederacy. Get it right or don’t mention it. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/43 "2012-01-10T13:15:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Those you see with it painted on their pickup trucks, OTOH, are simply assholes. What, you don’t like the Dukes of Hazzard? > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Aw, the Arizona branch of the site is down. ☹ I was hoping to link up with my Confederate brothers and maybe be named a general or something. Good luck. Don’t forget us little people, a.k.a. the cannon fodder. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/44 "2012-01-10T13:17:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t tell us, tell [confederatestates.org](http://confederatestates.org) to get the hell over it. Tell them yourself; it’s not up to me to fight their ignorance. In fact I never heard of this organization until it was brought up in this utterly pointless thread. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/45 "2012-01-10T13:54:13Z")
> [@GeddyClaypoolBurton](#): > > I came across a website called [http://www.confederatestatesofamerica.org/](http://www.confederatestatesofamerica.org/). As one may guess, the site is dedicated to the 147-year-old lost cause of the southern Confederacy. On the site, there are very extensive explanations as to how the C.S.A. still exists as an “occupied nation” and that they were holding true to the principles of the Declaration of Independence when they seceded (though I suppose the “All Men are Created Equal” clause had already been ignored). They say that slavery was not the reason they left the Union - even though they were all slave states - but in reality it was because of state’s rights. What caused the state’s rights issue? Whether or not a state could hold slaves. There are bizarre explanations and appeal to “divine authority” throughout the site, and I am guessing that it is run by someone who has nothing better to do (anyone can make a website call themselves president of their own society). What baffles me is why sentiments like these continue even into the 21st century, when the vast majority of current occupants of the Southern U.S. can’t trace their lineage back to the Civil War era and/or want nothing to do with such sentiments? What causes people to be so stubborn and unreasonable? Any ideas? First to your OP statement, the ‘all men are created equal’ was originally by a people who held slaves, so you can’t play that card. Confederate sympathizers can mean lots of things. it will be the meaning to the person that is the sympathizer which very well could be state’s rights or personal rights. A person can be very much against slavery but not think it’s the government’s job to stop it, but a grass roots movement, a change of heart of the people. With the industrial revolution coming slavery may not have had much more time anyway, and the war was certainly costly and very bloody. Was the federal government needed to force a end at such a high cost? Was it a unjust use of force. It is also very arguable that the US is founded on the principal that it is not just OK, but a moral imperative to break away from a oppressive government by force if needed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/46 "2012-01-10T14:38:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes it does. Self-government at the county level, self-government at the national level – it’s not all the same, but it’s all **equally** self-government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/47 "2012-01-10T14:39:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It is also very arguable that the US is founded on the principal . . . No country is founded on a principle. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/48 "2012-01-10T15:31:16Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > So former Confederates were required to swear loyalty to the Union but not to admit (to themselves or to others) the depravity of their conduct. Depravity? I fail to see how a Southern plantation owner working a black kid to death in a sugar cane field is more reprehensible than a Northern mine owner working a white kid to death in a coal mine. If you see any important moral difference between the two, you have a vivid imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/49 "2012-01-10T15:33:24Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Depravity? I fail to see how a Southern plantation owner working a black kid to death in a sugar cane field is more reprehensible than a Northern mine owner working a white kid to death in a coal mine. If you see any important moral difference between the two, you have a vivid imagination. “Slavery, shmavery” --Straight Dope Message Board poster “LonesomePolecat” ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/50 "2012-01-10T15:36:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No country is founded on a principle. Gee, I thought America was supposed to be a “proposition nation,” but apparently it’s not. If a country isn’t founded on a principle or principles, what is it founded upon? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/51 "2012-01-10T15:36:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What, you think the Nazis invented pogroms against Jews? Even the word “pogrom” [refers originally](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogram) to massacres of Jews; it’s been a Christian sport for a very long time. The Nazis were just the latest in a long line. > > And what does it matter if it was legal? I don’t know if the Nazis bothered to make what they were doing legal, but I doubt that “Hey, the Holocaust was legal” would be an argument with much traction. As for “livelihood”; so the monsters profited by their monstrousness. That makes them no less monsters. For that matter, the Nazis _did_ try to profit off of their atrocities; does that make them more forgivable? Sure Jews have been hated and killed for being jews for centuries… the holocaust took it to a new level don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/52 "2012-01-10T15:38:55Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > “Slavery, shmavery” --Straight Dope Message Board poster “LonesomePolecat” Get back to me when you have an actual point to make. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/53 "2012-01-10T15:42:17Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Get back to me when you have an actual point to make. The point is that you are apologizing for slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/54 "2012-01-10T15:49:39Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I’m not referring to the Negroes voting; I’m referring to farms and houses being burned to the ground and I’m referring to southerners not being left with the means to earn a living. The opening of a thread like this one denigrates the south. We go over this confederate is evil stuff time after time; get over it. Point 1- Your fine upstanding ancestors started a war in order to preserve the right to own people aka "animate property. It sure sucks that war meant burning and killing. Seems like that war might have been a bad idea in the long run. But you have nobody to blame but your predecessors who thought it was worth it to keep the right to own human beings like one owns chickens. Point 2- I, at least, and I’m willing to bet the majority of us, would be MORE than happy to get over it. Most of us are over it. However, many of your regional fellows continue to fly the banner that THE VAST MAJORITY OF FOLKS CALL THE CONFEDERATE FLAG and sing songs about how “If the south would have won we’d have had it made” and other hocum. They found websites defending the existance of a nation-state built on the sole purpose of holding onto slaves. If nobody flew the stars and bars again starting right now, it would hurt nobody. But folks continue to do so, and those people, like it or not, often romanticise the ante-bellum south, and hold onto the antiquated idea that Negros are less human than they are. We’ll be more than happy to get over it, as soon as you folks do. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/55 "2012-01-10T15:56:10Z")
Atlantic Monthly blogger T. Coates has done a considerable amount of writing and research on this issue: > **[The Civil War Isn't Tragic](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/the-civil-war-isnt-tragic/249545/)** > > The Atlantic covers news, politics, culture, technology, health, and more, through its articles, podcasts, videos, and flagship magazine. > **[The Civil War Isn't Tragic](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/04/the-civil-war-isnt-tragic/237888/)** > > I lack the ability to see tragedy in violently throwing off the yoke of slaveholders > **[The Civil War Isn't Tragic, Cont.](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/08/the-civil-war-isnt-tragic-cont/243713/)** > > Anyone who's going to deal in Civil War studies really needs to take a moment to grapple with James McPherson's This Mighty Scourge > **[The Civil War Isn't Tragic, Cont.](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/08/the-civil-war-isnt-tragic-cont/243791/)** > > I don't know that the Civil War should, or shouldn't, have been fought. But it's worth pointing out that it didn't appear by magic. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/56 "2012-01-10T15:59:44Z")
> **[Why We Fight](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/12/why-we-fight/67261/)** > > A planned "Secession Ball" in Georgia shows that too many people think that the Civil War wasn't about slavery > [@](#): > > People who say “the Civil War was about tariffs” should be distinguished from people who debate the stimulus package, or tax cuts, and categorized with birthers, truthers and assorted Holocaust-deniers. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/57 "2012-01-10T16:06:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It is also very arguable that the US is founded on the principal that it is not just OK, but a moral imperative to break away from a oppressive government by force if needed. But only the right of white people, right? What rock are you guys crawling out from? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/58 "2012-01-10T16:13:18Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Gee, I thought America was supposed to be a “proposition nation,” but apparently it’s not. If a country isn’t founded on a principle or principles, what is it founded upon? A **government** can be founded on a principle. A country is simply a country. It is not “founded” on anything, generally it just grows. The American nation, the national culture on this continent, existed before Independence and would still exist if we had never broken from the UK, or if we had done so and adopted some other form of government. France has been through 10+ regime changes since 1789 and, through it all, remains France; China has endured even more, for millennia, and remains China. America is a nation-state like France or China, **not** an idea-state like the Soviet Union, which collapsed when people stopped believing in it (but **Russia** remains). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/59 "2012-01-10T16:18:17Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > They found websites defending the existance of a nation-state built on the sole purpose of holding onto slaves. “Holding on to slaves”? What do you think this is, the 19th Century? In the New Confederacy, there will be no negroes at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/60 "2012-01-10T16:22:35Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Depravity? I fail to see how a Southern plantation owner working a black kid to death in a sugar cane field is more reprehensible than a Northern mine owner working a white kid to death in a coal mine. If you see any important moral difference between the two, you have a vivid imagination. If you **fail** to see any important moral difference between the two, you have a deficient one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010.md?page=4)