# Confederate sympathizers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010 "2012-01-10T02:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/81 "2012-01-10T21:23:20Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Sounds like you’re not a member of the group being addressed in this “pointless” thread, then, and have nothing in particular to contribute, nor any reason to speak on their behalf. I just get sick and tired of the meme that all southerners at the time in question were horrible monsters who supported the institution of slavery and remain racist bastards to this good day. It ain’t true and probably never was. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/82 "2012-01-10T21:25:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They did if they were Southerners. Not necessarily true; the war started before a lot of poor dirt farmers even knew about it. The war was started by the landed slave owning aristocracy. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/83 "2012-01-10T21:31:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They did if they were Southerners. Hang on now. My ancestors were poor sharecroppers and cotton-pickers who just did what the political elites told them to. They were illiterate and mostly concerned with where their next jug of whiskey would come from. To say all Southerners started the war is like saying all Germans invaded Poland. The point others were trying to make, and it’s an important point, is: the US Revolution and the Confederate Rebellion were ultimately rejections of external rule and a localization of that rule, which would reflect the particular nature of the territory. That principle is not a morally obvious one. Should a country’s boarders be sacrosanct? As a supporter of a 2 state solution in Israel and a 3 state solution in Iraq, I don’t think so. Moreover, I don’t like this talk of people being “traitors”. Yes, it’s technically true, and yes, the kernel of the Confederacy was a vicious, horrible practice that has thankfully been all but exterminated. If the moral tide had been the other way, and slave-holding states had become more prosperous and dominated Washington, leading to the secession by northern states, would we be calling them traitors? It’s just as true in that case. The North was on the **right** moral side of slavery, and the South was on the **wrong** side. But that is a different question than the abstract question of nullification and secession. I’m not in favor of those, either, but it’s the vitriol about the moral dimension that makes conversations about the governance dimension or the real tragedy of the war itself impossible. People can’t express misgivings about Sherman’s march without an instant rebuke, because apparently the Confederacy was something that **every white person in the South got together and cooked up**. I expect more from you, SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/84 "2012-01-10T21:42:45Z")
> [@dorsk188](#): > > The point others were trying to make, and it’s an important point, is: the US Revolution and the Confederate Rebellion were ultimately rejections of external rule and a localization of that rule, which would reflect the particular nature of the territory. There is, however, one major and important difference between the American Revolution and the ACW: the colonialists had no direct participation in the British government. _No taxation without representation_ was one of the revolutionary cries. The Confederate states, however, did have direct representation in the government. In fact, with the “three-fifths compromise” in effect Southerners had more political power per citizen than Northerners (which explains why most presidents to that time were Southerners despite a lower population). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/85 "2012-01-10T21:43:49Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I just get sick and tired of the meme that all southerners at the time in question were horrible monsters who supported the institution of slavery and remain racist bastards to this good day. It ain’t true and probably never was. To be fair, Cajuns mostly hid out in the swamps when the recruiting man came to call. And you don’t see a lot of Dixiecrat shit in Southwest Louisiana. But then Cajuns knew about being put on boats against their will. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/86 "2012-01-10T21:49:06Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > There is, however, one major and important difference between the American Revolution and the ACW: the colonialists had no direct participation in the British government. _No taxation without representation_ was one of the revolutionary cries. The Confederate states, however, did have direct representation in the government. In fact, with the “three-fifths compromise” in effect Southerners had more political power per citizen than Northerners (which explains why most presidents to that time were Southerners despite a lower population). I don’t disagree with that at all. Southerners were politically dominant, and no one squeals like a privileged class losing their privilege. The analogy is more of an emotional one. A sort of “screw you / take your ball and go home” mentality that comes into play with both. To be accurate, though, the South didn’t like losing in the federal government, but the colonies barely got to play at all (though if memory serves, there were potential minor accommodations on the table). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/87 "2012-01-10T22:15:52Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > If a country isn’t founded on a principle or principles, what is it founded upon? Rock? Well, except Sealand. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/88 "2012-01-10T22:46:25Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I just get sick and tired of the meme that all southerners at the time in question were horrible monsters who supported the institution of slavery and remain racist bastards to this good day. It ain’t true and probably never was. Maybe it isn’t, but the OP was talking specifically about modern-day Southerners who continue to advocate for the Confederacy… or who aren’t “over it,” you might say. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/89 "2012-01-10T22:52:49Z")
> [@GeddyClaypoolBurton](#): > > I came across a website called [http://www.confederatestatesofamerica.org/](http://www.confederatestatesofamerica.org/). As one may guess, the site is dedicated to the 147-year-old lost cause of the southern Confederacy. On the site, there are very extensive explanations as to how the C.S.A. still exists as an “occupied nation” and that they were holding true to the principles of the Declaration of Independence when they seceded (though I suppose the “All Men are Created Equal” clause had already been ignored). They say that slavery was not the reason they left the Union - even though they were all slave states - but in reality it was because of state’s rights. What caused the state’s rights issue? Whether or not a state could hold slaves. There are bizarre explanations and appeal to “divine authority” throughout the site, and I am guessing that it is run by someone who has nothing better to do (anyone can make a website call themselves president of their own society). What baffles me is why sentiments like these continue even into the 21st century, when the vast majority of current occupants of the Southern U.S. can’t trace their lineage back to the Civil War era and/or want nothing to do with such sentiments? What causes people to be so stubborn and unreasonable? Any ideas? People are stubborn and unreasonable because to be so is human nature. I see the civil war nostalgia (“Southern Heritage”) somewhat akin to pro football mania - something to occupy the minds of those with nothing better to do. If heritage is all you’ve got, I guess it is important. Network radio and television has done much to homogenize our regional cultures, but the advent of the internet has given new scope to fringe groups. I grew up in pre-Castro Miami, Florida; culturally about as southern as New Jersey. We had a large colony of Jews on Miami Beach, which led to local humor characterizing it as a suburb of Tel-Aviv. We were taught anti-semitism by scout leaders (mostly WWII vets). The culture was racially segregated, but not vicious. The most rabid racists were displaced northerners, including (shame) my visiting relatives. I was bussed across town to maintain school segregation, and was greatly amused by later howls over forced bussing to end segregation. I also had the pleasure to know a former Negro Leagues player, half cherokee and the butler in a large estate adjoining our development. I now live in South Carolina, and Southern Heritage is a close second to college football. People here have gotten used to integration, but are prejudiced against Yankees, whom they feel are overbearing and discourteous. They curse the inventor of air conditioning. Northerners and southerners display racism and religious prejudice in different, culturally determined, ways. Neither really care to critically examine or to change their respective, and obviously superior, cultures. My recommendation is to opr out of the game, live in harmony with your fellow man, and not worry too much about the other guy. Comment? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/90 "2012-01-10T22:54:42Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I just get sick and tired of the meme that all southerners at the time in question were horrible monsters who supported the institution of slavery and remain racist bastards to this good day. It ain’t true and probably never was. There were very few abolitionists in the antebellum South. (Granted, there might have been more than we know about, because talking about it could get you lynched.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/91 "2012-01-10T22:58:44Z")
> [@dorsk188](#): > > The North was on the **right** moral side of slavery, and the South was on the **wrong** side. But that is a different question than the abstract question of nullification and secession. I’m not in favor of those, either, but it’s the vitriol about the moral dimension that makes conversations about the governance dimension or the real tragedy of the war itself impossible. What else do you expect? Of course all those are vitriolically-morally-charged issues, that’s why a **war** was fought over them. Worse, an American war. This country was founded in substantial part by religious dissidents who **knew** they were right where others were wrong and knew that that was **important.** And that’s the American way ever since. Every cause is a matter of good vs. evil. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/92 "2012-01-10T23:09:48Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Maybe it isn’t, but the OP was talking specifically about modern-day Southerners who continue to advocate for the Confederacy… or who aren’t “over it,” you might say. Oh, okay. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/93 "2012-01-10T23:14:36Z")
Get over it? Ok, when the Southern states stop flaunting the banner of Slavery and start flying a real flag: > **[Flag of Georgia (U.S. state)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Georgia_(U.S._state))** > > The flag of Georgia is the flag of the U.S. state of Georgia. Its current iteration was adopted on February 19, 2003. The flag bears three horizontal stripes (a red-white-red triband) and features a blue canton containing a ring of 13 white stars that encircle the state's gold-colored coat of arms. The ring of stars that encompass the state's coat of arms represents Georgia as one of the original Thirteen Colonies. > In the coat of arms, the arch symbolizes the state's constitution while the pi... > **[Flag of Mississippi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Mississippi)** > > The flag of Mississippi, also known as the Mississippi flag, consists of a white magnolia blossom surrounded by 21 stars and the words 'In God We Trust' written below, all put over a blue Canadian pale with two vertical gold borders on a red field. The topmost star is composed of a pattern of five diamonds, an Indigenous symbol; the other 20 stars are white, as Mississippi was the 20th state to join the Union. The flag was adopted on January 11, 2021. > Mississippi has had three official state ... ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/94 "2012-01-10T23:20:01Z")
Am I reckless in assuming there is considerable overlap, nowadays, between Neo-Confederates and White Nationalists? ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/95 "2012-01-10T23:38:57Z")
> [@dorsk188](#): > > The point others were trying to make, and it’s an important point, is: **the US Revolution and the Confederate Rebellion were ultimately rejections of external rule and a localization of that rule, which would reflect the particular nature of the territory.** Bolding mine. No. No. No. And no. The Confederacy was not rejecting external rule in favor of local autonomy. They were trying to create a nation with more central rule because they were losing the demographic battle to dominate the North. This argument is wrong on all levels. The vast majority of Northerners at the time would have happily let the South stay slave holding. There were no serious efforts to interfere with slavery withing slave holding states. All the interference went the other way. But Lincoln’s election meant the days of the South dictating policy to the North were over. The closest analogy I can think of for today would be if Ohio tried to secede because they lost their status as first caucus and claiming it was because the rest of the country was trying to dictate to them. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/96 "2012-01-10T23:51:42Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > My ancestors did not start the war. I don’t know if any of my ancestors owned slaves nor do you. I don’t own a confederate battle banner; I’ve never owned such a banner nor have i ever flown or displayed such a banner and I don’t give a damn how many people call it the confederate flag. The fact is that it isn’t or wasn’t the confederate flag and saying it’s okay to call it that because a lot of people do simply proves that a lot of people don’t know what the hell they are talking about. Personally, I am over it. You and your ilk are not. You seem to have some deep-seated issues with “yankees”, but that’s your cross to bear. I am glad you are over the slavery issue, and accept with no problem the fact of slavery being the cause of the civil war. I am honestly happy for you. However, if all that is true, almost nothing that is being said here is about you, or aimed at you. It’s your neighbor, who wears a t-shrit with the confederate generals and leaders on it that says “A Few Good Men”. That guy is an idiot, and probably a racist. I’m talking to the guy who flies his Battle Flag from the back of his truck, and holds the blood stained symbol or rape, murder, intimidation and racism as some sort of thing to be honored. that’s who I’m talking about. Apparently that is not you, and for that, I am grateful. And like it or not, those guys cause everyone from your neck of the woods to look bad, and that particular species of American is more likely to be found in the southern parts of the US, particularly the rural areas, than in, say, New York City. Or Miami. Or Duluth. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/97 "2012-01-11T00:29:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > To me, everyone who’s crying for states rights is just upset because their political faction isn’t in power at the national level. Let them gain power over the federal government and they’ll drop the states rights platform in a heartbeat. Yeah this is definitely part of it. But, it doesn’t apply to everyone that supports states’ rights. Like me for example. I live in one of the most liberal states. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/98 "2012-01-11T01:14:07Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > You seem to have some deep-seated issues with “yankees”, but that’s your cross to bear. I am glad you are over the slavery issue, and accept with no problem the fact of slavery being the cause of the civil war. I am honestly happy for you. > > However, if all that is true, almost nothing that is being said here is about you, or aimed at you. It’s your neighbor, who wears a t-shrit with the confederate generals and leaders on it that says “A Few Good Men”. That guy is an idiot, and probably a racist. > > I’m talking to the guy who flies his Battle Flag from the back of his truck, and holds the blood stained symbol or rape, murder, intimidation and racism as some sort of thing to be honored. that’s who I’m talking about. Apparently that is not you, and for that, I am grateful. > > And like it or not, those guys cause everyone from your neck of the woods to look bad, and that particular species of American is more likely to be found in the southern parts of the US, particularly the rural areas, than in, say, New York City. Or Miami. Or Duluth. Of course I have issues with yankees; I live in Florida, where jillions of people from up north move to and immediately begin telling us how much better things are up north----it’s irritating. (and the foregoing is a joke) Thanks for the good words and that is not a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/99 "2012-01-11T01:20:58Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yeah this is definitely part of it. But, it doesn’t apply to everyone that supports states’ rights. Like me for example. I live in one of the most liberal states. Fine, but how does that have anything at all to do with the Confederacy? As noted above, the CSA Constitution was, if anything, LESS states’ rights friendly than the US Constitution. So, claiming the war was about states’ rights rather than slavery is, at best, revisionism and, at worst, a pathetic attempt to deflect attention away from the slavery issue. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010/100 "2012-01-11T04:50:40Z")
South Carolina was the first state to secede. The only significant issue it put forward in its [declaration of secession](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp)was slavery, with states’ rights being the technicality that it used as the legal basis to secede in its pursuit of slavery. > [@](#): > > . . . in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States . . . > . . . The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government . . . > . . . But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery . . . . In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed . . . > . . . the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided . . . > . . . even the right of transit for a slave has been denied . . . > . . . have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia . . . > Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation. > The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor. > . . . the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions . . . they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection. > . . . all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. > . . . > On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States. > . . . The slaveholding States will no longer have the power . . . 150 years later, this very same declaration of secession in pursuit of slavery was [celebrated at the Secession Ball by the leaders of South Carolina](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/21/AR2010122105341.html). > [@](#): > > “We are very proud of who we are,” said Chip Limehouse, a South Carolina legislator who rented a historically accurate suit and vest for the formal ball celebrating the anniversary. “This is in our DNA.” In their DNA is it. That such behaviour continues to take place is truly disgusting. It is well past time the south learn that the pursuit of slavery is not something to be celebrated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confederate-sympathizers/609010.md?page=6)