# Confiscation of guns: What do gun owners fear exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 10, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510 "2019-01-10T05:53:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/201 "2019-01-14T11:19:04Z")
> [@postpic200](#): > > Then amend the Constitution, easy if you really think you’re right and that people will agree with you, strip the 2nd out of the constitution. In today’s climate the chance of passing a constitutional amendment with any controversy is Zero. Did you really not even know that? 😕 (Moreover, some gun nuts here seem to be arguing that the 2nd A merely codified the Will of Jehovah the One and Only True God. Should anyone seeking to repeal the 2nd A fear being damned?) > [@postpic200](#): > > The fact the murder rate doesn’t really change, pre and post gun ban should tell you the banning guns doesn’t really work when it comes to stopping people from killing each other, or does it make you feel better that someone was beaten to death rather then shot? Fact? No. (You might have some factoid which points that way, but you didn’t even cite it.) Here, _in increasing order_,are [Murder rates per 100,000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) for some selected countries. Japan 0.28 Iceland 0.30 HongKong 0.38 Slovenia 0.48 Indonesia 0.50 Norway 0.61 China 0.62 Switzerland 0.54 Netherlands 0.55 Spain 0.63 Italy 0.67 Poland 0.67 Greece 0.75 Ireland 0.80 Germany 1.18 Scotland 1.18 Eng/Wales 1.22 France 1.35 Canada 1.68 Thailand 3.24 U.S.A. 5.35 Ukraine 6.34 Russia 10.82 How did I choose which countries to show? I got all the G7 I think; Thailand, which we residents consider notorious for its high murder rate; and _all TWO_ (2) of the European countries with higher murder rates than the U.S.A. Lately the U.S. strives to have much in common with Russia. If we now view Russia as our peer, rather than Britain and Germany, then I guess the U.S. murder rate is low. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/202 "2019-01-14T12:16:32Z")
Why do the gun owners get so bipolar? It’s all about having their guns confiscated. As if that is the only option that the government has., or would use. And it would not, because it would be politically disastrous. So the gun owners wail about having their guns confiscated, when it would never happen. So now we are left with gun control. Here the NRA types wet their knockers again, being of the opinion that Joe Blow has an unassailable right to keep military-level hardware at home. The only country that allows this is Switzerland, and only serving soldiers and reservists are allowed to do this. The other main wail of the gun owners and the NRA is that Joe Blow will be defenseless when armed criminals come through the window to kill him, rape his daughter and pillage his house. Well, jeez, we are only talking about banning military-level hardware - and do you really want high-velocity rounds flying through the neighborhood when Joe hoses the intruder(s) with his beloved AR-15? And, as for the criminals, make it harder for them to get guns. They always can, always will, but in so many cases the perp just bought his weapons from a gun shop. Arms control is a permanent battle, not a one-off. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/203 "2019-01-14T13:13:27Z")
> [@](#): > > I think you missed the point, the IRA managed to get many weapons that were banned, the fact that making something illegal we means it won’t be available is illogical. It also isn’t being claimed. What is being claimed is that drying up the legal supply also dries up the illegal supply - where the hell do you think all that stuff comes from, anyway? > [@](#): > > You also are missing the point the the British fought the IRA for many, many years and yet really didn’t defeat them. Police have been fighting crime and criminal gangs since, well, forever, and they still exist. To you, that’s an argument to let them win. > [@](#): > > When the enemy look like everyone else, who don’t wear uniforms, who hit and run who will blow up your base and the local population will hide them what do you do, shoot everyone? You brought up the IRA as an example. There is no difference that you have defined - yet they were “defeated” and disarmed anyway, weren’t they? How do you think that happened? > [@](#): > > The fact the murder rate doesn’t really change, pre and post gun ban “Fact”? :dubious: > [@](#): > > Laws are only followed by people who obey the law, criminals by definition don’t follow the law. And even your threats to kill cops who try to enforce it constitute crime in themselves, don’t they, even if you never do act on them. > [@](#): > > what it did was turn a lot of people in to criminals, who refused to follow the new law for any number of reasons. It was their choice to become criminals, wasn’t it? > [@](#): > > Gun control in Canada failed In what way? > [@](#): > > We can print in metal now, so how do you stop that? Again, the fight against crime is perpetual. Changes in the way crime is committed bring changes in the ways the law is enforced. > [@](#): > > So to stop that free speech must end, then that whole 4th amendment, that has to go too Strawmen again. > [@](#): > > You see I don’t see it as a gun issue, I see it as a rights issue. Yanno, we all do. We simply disagree on what rights are involved. To most of us, the right to life and safety is paramount. To you, the right to be able to end our lives is paramount. One of us is wrong, and I suggest it’s you. > [@](#): > > If the government can take away any of our rights then they can take them all. The government IS us. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/204 "2019-01-14T13:15:59Z")
> [@postpic200](#): > > Then amend the Constitution, easy if you really think you’re right and that people will agree with you, strip the 2nd out of the constitution. Glad we agree that it should. It wasn’t an issue for a couple of centuries, when its obvious meaning, providing for a military capability, was unquestioned, as well as uncontested. But now the invented, perverted interpretation the NRA uses has become so pernicious that it would be better to get rid of the damn thing. So then what? What would you claim to be the source of a personal right to bear arms if the Second did not exist? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/205 "2019-01-14T13:20:28Z")
I’d find these discussions more useful if we could focus on one topic at a time. _ **Would America be a better place if there were far fewer guns in the hands of criminals and non-criminals alike?** _ If Yes, let’s talk about ways to help law enforcement in a campaign against illegal guns. If No, stop whining “If murder is outlawed then only outlaws will murder” or whatever it is. _ **Do we think Thomas Jefferson would look at the bumpkin rednecks carrying around AR-15’s and feel proud that this was his America?** _ If not, please stop pretending the FFs would admire modern gun nuts. _ **Do you want guns for hobby or for sport?** _ Neither the debate nor the 2nd A is about you. Nobody’s coming for your hunting rifle. If the animals you like to shoot can only be shot with an AR-15, please go brag about it among your own kind on a different message-board. BTW, I myself am not a “gun-grabber.” I wish those on both sides of the debate would shut up about it. Sure, gun control might save a few thousand American lives annually. But (a) many more thousands will die due to loosening of environmental safety standards under Trump; (b) many tens of thousands are dying annually due to weakening of ACA and other reparable flaws in U.S. healthcare; © these deaths — hugely outnumbering gun deaths — are due to wrongful voting by nitwit one-issue gun voters; and (d) many or most of the gun deaths are of gun nuts or their offspring: these deaths may improve the gene pool. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/206 "2019-01-14T13:27:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The rights listed were life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Those are some of the rights endowed by the Creator, not an exhaustive list. > [@](#): > > \*Not \*gun ownership, which in fact is in direct \*opposition \*to each of these rights held by others. The Founding Fathers obviously didn’t think so, or they would not have included the right to keep and bear arms in the Constitution. Read the Declaration. It lays it all out. [ul][li]Rights come from God.[/li][li]Governments exist to secure the rights that come from God.[/li][li]When governments no longer secure those rights, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish that government.[/li][li]The Declaration of Independence is an explanation of why the colonies thought it was necessary to abolish the British government’s authority over them, and to establish their own.[/li][li]The FF were going to use armed force if necessary.[/li][li]Therefore the FF believed that tRtKaBA was a fundamental right, including but not limited to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.[/ul][/li] > [@](#): > > The question was _not_ about rights in general. :dubious: Again, the right claimed to be “God-given” is the one to gun ownership. Where does \*that \*come from? The question is, in fact, about rights in general. All rights are God-given. TRtKaBA is a right. Therefore, tRtKaBA is God-given. QED. The right to keep and bear arms comes from the same place as the right of free speech, freedom of assembly, and the rest of them. From God. They do not come from the legal system, they do not come from the Constitution, they do not come from the king or any government. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/207 "2019-01-14T13:34:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Those are some of the rights endowed by the Creator, not an exhaustive list. Once again, and hopefully for the last time: Where else do YOU find a God-given right to gun ownership? > [@](#): > > All rights are God-given. TRtKaBA is a right. Therefore, tRtKaBA is God-given. QED. Yeah, I didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/208 "2019-01-14T14:04:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Once again, and hopefully for the last time: Where else do YOU find a God-given right to gun ownership? You mean, where do I find it, apart from where I find it? Nowhere - I only find it where it is found. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/209 "2019-01-14T14:11:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You mean, where do I find it, apart from where I find it? Nowhere - I only find it where it is found. > > Regards, > Shodan I can’t seem to find The Right To Bare Arms in any Bible. Were the people that wrote the Constitution holy prophets blessed by your god that you would accept what they said without question? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/210 "2019-01-14T14:11:57Z")
IOW you’re admitting you made it up. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/211 "2019-01-14T14:12:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Once again, and hopefully for the last time: Where else do YOU find a God-given right to gun ownership? > > > [@](#): > > > > All rights are God-given. TRtKaBA is a right. Therefore, tRtKaBA is God-given. QED. > > Yeah, I didn’t think so. Women were given the “right” to vote in 1920. Is this an example of God changing his mind? Suppose the Second Commandment is repealed 50 years from now. Would that be Yahweh changing His Mind again? Or the result of a battle between Moloch and Yahweh in the Heavens Above? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/212 "2019-01-14T14:20:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Once again, and hopefully for the last time: Where else do YOU find a God-given right to gun ownership? I know this was not addressed to me, but the fundamental issue is not guns _per se_. There can be no God-given right to owning guns since guns are a technology invented by humans and did not even exist for most of human history. The fundamental God-given right is that of _self defense_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/213 "2019-01-14T14:23:16Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I know this was not addressed to me, but the fundamental issue is not guns _per se_. There can be no God-given right to owning guns since guns are a technology invented by humans and did not even exist for most of human history. > > The fundamental God-given right is that of _self defense_. Is man allowed to restrict in what way people may defend themselves, or is that unlimited because God? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/214 "2019-01-14T14:32:53Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The fundamental God-given right is that of _self defense_. Does that mean my right to protect myself from you and your tools of death, and more broadly the right of civilized society to protect itself from the likes of you, is given to me and to us by God and you will not question it? Because I can live with that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/215 "2019-01-14T14:42:13Z")
If it is right given to you by your god, do other citizens who follow other gods, or even no gods at all, have a say in the matter? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/216 "2019-01-14T14:42:51Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > In today’s climate the chance of passing a constitutional amendment with any controversy is Zero. Did you really not even know that? 😕 > (Moreover, some gun nuts here seem to be arguing that the 2nd A merely codified the Will of Jehovah the One and Only True God. Should anyone seeking to repeal the 2nd A fear being damned?) > > Fact? No. (You might have some factoid which points that way, but you didn’t even cite it.) > Here, _in increasing order_,are [Murder rates per 100,000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) for some selected countries. > Japan 0.28 > Iceland 0.30 > HongKong 0.38 > Slovenia 0.48 > Indonesia 0.50 > Norway 0.61 > China 0.62 > Switzerland 0.54 > Netherlands 0.55 > Spain 0.63 > Italy 0.67 > Poland 0.67 > Greece 0.75 > Ireland 0.80 > Germany 1.18 > Scotland 1.18 > Eng/Wales 1.22 > France 1.35 > Canada 1.68 > Thailand 3.24 > U.S.A. 5.35 > Ukraine 6.34 > Russia 10.82 > How did I choose which countries to show? I got all the G7 I think; Thailand, which we residents consider notorious for its high murder rate; and _all TWO_ (2) of the European countries with higher murder rates than the U.S.A. > > Lately the U.S. strives to have much in common with Russia. If we now view Russia as our peer, rather than Britain and Germany, then I guess the U.S. murder rate is low. But don’t you understand? Those countries are more harmonious because they’re more _homogenous_ than the U.S. it’s “diversity” (dog whistle for “black people”) that makes the U.S. so dangerously violent. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/217 "2019-01-14T14:58:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If it is right given to you by your god, do other citizens who follow other gods, or even no gods at all, have a say in the matter? It’s also odd that no god ever wrote any of that down. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/218 "2019-01-14T15:04:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > 2A did call for a well regulated militia, and it would be the states that are regulating that militia according to the constitution. What do you have against the constitution, that you would limit a state’s constitutional right to regulate its militias? > > The FF’s absolutely thought that the govt should have a monopoly on violence, and granted the states the ability and rights to enforce that. The main fly in the militia argument is that the militia is legally defined as ([10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246)): > [@](#): > > (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. > (b) The classes of the militia are— > (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and > (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. So at least as far as legal technicalities go, ALL able-bodied men between 17 and 45 are members of the militia in some fashion- organized, if they’re part of the Natl. Guard, and unorganized if not. I suspect that’s probably some sort of legal foundation for conscription, but in terms of saying that guns should be restricted to the National Guard because they’re “the militia”, I think the presence of the unorganized militia tends to make that line of thought interesting. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/219 "2019-01-14T15:14:13Z")
Not if you recognize the term “unorganized militia” as being a legal fiction to pre-empt tiresome claims that the National Guard is \*not \*the militia described in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution itself. Besides, how can something be well-regulated, in whatever definition you choose to invent, if it isn’t even organized? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/220 "2019-01-14T15:29:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > IOW you’re admitting you made it up. Gotcha. No, I didn’t write the DoI. _:shrugs:_ Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510.md?page=12)