# Confiscation of guns: What do gun owners fear exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 10, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510 "2019-01-10T05:53:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/221 "2019-01-14T15:38:11Z")
I think you know what you’re being told. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/222 "2019-01-14T16:02:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is man allowed to restrict in what way people may defend themselves, or is that unlimited because God? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > If it is right given to you by your god, do other citizens who follow other gods, or even no gods at all, have a say in the matter? Belief in a specific God, or even the concept of God is not necessary to believe in natural law or human rights. Are you making an argument that self defense is not a human right? If that’s what you’re saying, please just say it and defend your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/223 "2019-01-14T16:03:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Does that mean my right to protect myself from you and your tools of death, and more broadly the right of civilized society to protect itself from the likes of you, is given to me and to us by God and you will not question it? Because I can live with that. What kind of a question is that? Of course you have just as much of a right to self defense as I do. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/224 "2019-01-14T16:06:26Z")
Let’s go slower. Do I have a God-given right to prevent you from being able to kill me? Does society have a God-given right to prevent threats from you and the likes of you? Or does God require me to have a gun too, in order to be able to protect my life from you after you’ve already violated my liberty and pursuit of happiness? You are working from a basic assumption that you’re the Good Guy by definition. That assumption is not shared, and is not consistent with the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/225 "2019-01-14T16:23:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Let’s go slower. Do I have a God-given right to prevent you from being able to kill me? That question does not make any sense. Nearly any human past the age of 8 or 9 _is able_ to kill any other human if they are evil and cunning enough. You can’t prevent human nature or prevent human ability without opening up a massive can of philosophical worms. But, you absolutely do have a right to prevent _the act_ of someone killing you. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Does society have a God-given right to prevent threats from you and the likes of you? “The likes of me” also includes you, since we are both human individuals; and the answer is yes. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Or does God require me to have a gun too, in order to be able to protect my life from you after you’ve already violated my liberty and pursuit of happiness? I don’t believe in requiring anyone to have a gun. You should be free to do whatever you think is most prudent and reasonable to protect yourself, your family, and your property from whatever threats you deem likely. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You are working from a basic assumption that you’re the Good Guy by definition. That assumption is not shared, and is not consistent with the evidence. American society presumes that everyone is a “good guy”. That’s why the 4th Amendment exists and is why our legal system is based on presumption of innocence. Are you advocating abolishing the 4th amendment and altering our judicial system? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/226 "2019-01-14T16:30:50Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > That question does not make any sense. Let’s go even slower, then: Do I have a God-given right to prevent you from possessing the means to kill me? > [@](#): > > But, you absolutely do have a right to prevent _the act_ of someone killing you. Since you just acknowledged the futility of changing human nature, which includes a willingness to attempt that act, do my God-given rights extend to preventing you from having the \*means \*to succeed? > [@](#): > > I don’t believe in requiring anyone to have a gun. You should be free to do whatever you think is most prudent and reasonable to protect yourself, your family, and your property from whatever threats you deem likely. I’m asking you where you think God draws the line, between preventing you from doing it and making it my responsibility to defend against you once you do it anyway. > [@](#): > > American society presumes that everyone is a “good guy”. That’s why the 4th Amendment exists and is why our legal system is based on presumption of innocence. Are you advocating abolishing the 4th amendment and altering our judicial system? I said that in a moral sense, not a legal one. They’re not the same. Your presumption is that you are a Good Guy, who would \*never \*be a threat to anyone but a Bad Guy (however God sees that) despite collecting the means to do so, and further that God is on your side. That presumption is not supported. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/227 "2019-01-14T16:49:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Let’s go even slower, then: Do I have a God-given right to prevent you from possessing the means to kill me? Clearly not, since that would require a massive violation of my rights including removing my brain and my hands and not allowing me access to anything sharp or potentially toxic. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Since you just acknowledged the futility of changing human nature, which includes a willingness to attempt that act, do my God-given rights extend to preventing you from having the \*means \*to succeed? Again, clearly not since that would be a massive violation of my rights. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’m asking you where you think God draws the line, between preventing you from doing it and making it my responsibility to defend against you once you do it anyway. You would abdicate the responsibility to defend yourself if your life were threatened? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I said that in a moral sense, not a legal one. They’re not the same. Your presumption is that you are a Good Guy, who would \*never \*be a threat to anyone but a Bad Guy (however God sees that) despite collecting the means to do so, and further that God is on your side. That presumption is not supported. Why isn’t that presumption supported? I have never physically harmed anyone and I don’t intend to. Would you prefer to live in a society where the state presumes every individual to be an aspiring killer who would definitely kill if only they were provided the means to do so? ---
**Author:** ![postpic200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@postpic200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postpic200)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/228 "2019-01-14T17:00:55Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > In today’s climate the chance of passing a constitutional amendment with any controversy is Zero. Did you really not even know that? 😕 > (Moreover, some gun nuts here seem to be arguing that the 2nd A merely codified the Will of Jehovah the One and Only True God. Should anyone seeking to repeal the 2nd A fear being damned?) > > Fact? No. (You might have some factoid which points that way, but you didn’t even cite it.) > Here, _in increasing order_,are [Murder rates per 100,000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) for some selected countries. > Japan 0.28 > Iceland 0.30 > HongKong 0.38 > Slovenia 0.48 > Indonesia 0.50 > Norway 0.61 > China 0.62 > Switzerland 0.54 > Netherlands 0.55 > Spain 0.63 > Italy 0.67 > Poland 0.67 > Greece 0.75 > Ireland 0.80 > Germany 1.18 > Scotland 1.18 > Eng/Wales 1.22 > France 1.35 > Canada 1.68 > Thailand 3.24 > U.S.A. 5.35 > Ukraine 6.34 > Russia 10.82 > How did I choose which countries to show? I got all the G7 I think; Thailand, which we residents consider notorious for its high murder rate; and _all TWO_ (2) of the European countries with higher murder rates than the U.S.A. > > Lately the U.S. strives to have much in common with Russia. If we now view Russia as our peer, rather than Britain and Germany, then I guess the U.S. murder rate is low. Let’s take Eng/wales and Australia as they have good numbers that we can use, with Australia being the current favorite with the restrict guns fans. England started restricting gun starting with the firearms act of 1968, amended the act in 1988 and again in 1997, so let’s look at the murder rate. In the 1950’s the murder rate varied from .58 to .91 In the 1960’s .68 to 1.65 (the murder rate 1966 to 1969 was between 1.35 to 1.65 if you exclude those years the pre-restriction rate 1960 – 1965 was between .68 to 1.12) In the 1970’s .69 to 1.10 In the 1980’s .97 to 1.12 In the 1990’s 1.09 to 1.45 in the 2000’s UK 1.26 to 2.1 2010’s England wales .72 to 1.22 From that we can see a slight trend upward which continued after the new gun laws were passed. Of course, if you look at the data from 2000 onward, you’ll see a downward trend. But since the restriction of guns started in the 1960’s it’s fair to look at the murder rate starting before the restrictions took place. Australia murder rate 1976-1979 1.8 to 2.0 1980’s 1.9 to 2.4 1990’s 1.52 to 2.2 (1990 to 1996 1.7 to 2.0, 1996 to 1999 1.52 to 1.81) 2000’s 1.34 to 1.89 With the downward trend continuing to today with a murder rate of about 1.0 Australia was already on a downward trend before the ban and it continued on that trend (yes I know there was a blip upward right after the ban, but the rate quickly fell back into the trend) You’ll notice that Switzerland allows the free purchase of semi-automatic firearms (with concealed carrying permits being issued sparingly) and a gun ownership rate of 27.6 guns per 100 residents and yet their murder rate is much lower than England or Australia despite their gun restrictions. The murder rates seem to follow the same trend as before the gun restrictions, I didn’t include Canada in the data but they also followed the same trends before and after their gun restriction. The only real difference was how people were killed. While it’s true murder by firearms went down, people went to other methods to kill each other. So, the ban really didn’t have any effect on the overall murder rate. You’ll notice people pushing to restrict or ban guns don’t bring up the murder rates, only gun murders. I can only conclude that they A, only care about people who were murdered with a gun, and not by other means, or B, they really don’t care about the murder rate and only want to get rid of guns. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/229 "2019-01-14T17:14:12Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Clearly not, since that would require a massive violation of my rights including removing my brain and my hands and not allowing me access to anything sharp or potentially toxic. Does God permit me to defend myself by means short of that, then - do I have the right to defend myself from you pre-emptively, or only reactively? Does God want me to let you shoot me first, or does He let me prevent you from shooting me first? > [@](#): > > Again, clearly not since that would be a massive violation of my rights. Whose rights are paramount, then? Is your right (found nowhere but in a contested reading of one amendment) to possess a gun superior to my right to life (which you admit is God-given)? That’s your claim. > [@](#): > > You would abdicate the responsibility to defend yourself if your life were threatened? I would rather prevent you from threatening it, like you do now. > [@](#): > > Why isn’t that presumption supported? I have never physically harmed anyone and I don’t intend to. That’s what every gun owner says, right up until it happens, isn’t it? What makes you an exception? > [@](#): > > Would you prefer to live in a society where the state presumes every individual to be an aspiring killer who would definitely kill if only they were provided the means to do so? Look at the casualty rate and tell us that isn’t the case right now. Some of us want to fix that, others of us want to wallow in it. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/230 "2019-01-14T17:22:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Does God permit me to defend myself by means short of that, then - do I have the right to defend myself from you pre-emptively, or only reactively? Does God want me to let you shoot me first, or does He let me prevent you from shooting me first? Pre-emptively? What have I done that makes you fear for your life? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Whose rights are paramount, then? Is your right (found nowhere but in a contested reading of one amendment) to possess a gun superior to my right to life (which you admit is God-given)? That’s your claim. I don’t care about a gun _per se_. It’s just a tool invented by humans. I care about self defense. Someone possessing a gun and your right to life are not mutually exclusive. The right to self defense is a subset of the preeminent right to life. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I would rather prevent you from threatening it, like you do now. I am not threatening your life. Even if I did, it would not be a credible threat since I don’t even know who you are. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That’s what every gun owner says, right up until it happens, isn’t it? Cite? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Look at the casualty rate and tell us that isn’t the case right now. Some of us want to fix that, others of us want to wallow in it. This statement is nothing but hysterics, bordering on delusion. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/231 "2019-01-14T17:26:37Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Pre-emptively? What have I done that makes you fear for your life? Already stated. You have equipped yourself with the means to do so. You also admit being human. > [@](#): > > Someone possessing a gun and your right to life are not mutually exclusive. Your possession of a gun is inherently a threat to someone’s life, whether mine or not. That’s why you bought it, right? > [@](#): > > I am not threatening your life. Even if I did, it would not be a credible threat since I don’t even know who you are. Already answered. > [@](#): > > This statement is nothing but hysterics, bordering on delusion. Evasion. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/232 "2019-01-14T17:34:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Already stated. You have equipped yourself with the means to do so. You also admit being human. Yes, my being human in and of itself renders me capable of taking human life, even without the use of tools. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Your possession of a gun is inherently a threat to someone’s life, whether mine or not. That’s why you bought it, right? Ahh, we are not distinguishing between active and passive threats. Yes my possession of a gun would be a passive threat on someone’s life. It is not in and of itself an active threat. Similarly, my biology as a male and my stronger than average build are passive threats against those who would seek to do violence to me. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/233 "2019-01-14T18:12:20Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Yes, my being human in and of itself renders me capable of taking human life, even without the use of tools. But much more so with tools that are designed and intended and optimized for that function, and have no other function for which that is true, wouldn’t you agree? > [@](#): > > Ahh, we are not distinguishing between active and passive threats. And why should we, except to point out that a threat to me that has not yet been acted upon presents less of an infringement of my right to life? You have decided to make yourself a threat to the lives of others. You do \*not \*have a right to do so, God-given or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/234 "2019-01-14T18:28:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But much more so with tools that are designed and intended and optimized for that function, and have no other function for which that is true, wouldn’t you agree? If only we could magic away all the weapons, I’m sure the world would be a better place. But, this is the real world where guns exist. The right to self defense is a fundamental human right. Since people in the real world actually do use guns to inflict violence on others – in order for me to have a reasonable ability to defending myself and others from violence, I must have access to tools that put me on at minimum an equal footing. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And why should we, except to point out that a threat to me that has not yet been acted upon presents less of an infringement of my right to life? You have decided to make yourself a threat to the lives of others. You do \*not \*have a right to do so, God-given or otherwise. You’re speaking completely irrationally. Every passive threat to your life is an infringement of your right to life? You would lobotomize and dismember every human being on earth? You would remove all sharp objects and toxic substances from the face of the earth? You would de-fang all venomous snakes and otherwise incapacitate all dangerous animals? You would outlaw automobile, air, rail, and sea travel? You would flatten the surface of the earth and all structures so that you could not fall to your death? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/235 "2019-01-14T18:44:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I didn’t write the DoI. > > _:shrugs:_ > > Regards, > Shodan I can’t believe you aren’t smart enough to know that: (1) The Declaration of Independence is _not_ a legal document. It is not the source of our legal rights, whether you call them natural or otherwise. The Constitution makes no reference to the Declaration of Independence. (2) The Declaration of Independence does _not_ include a right to bear arms in its list of god-given rights. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/236 "2019-01-14T18:54:26Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > If only we could magic away all the weapons, I’m sure the world would be a better place. But, this is the real world where guns exist. Strawman. > [@](#): > > The right to self defense is a fundamental human right. The right to life is even more fundamental - that entails the right to reduce threats to it. > [@](#): > > Since people in the real world actually do use guns to inflict violence on others – in order for me to have a reasonable ability to defending myself and others from violence, I must have access to tools that put me on at minimum an equal footing. Funny how you don’t see \*yourself \*as a threat, only \*other \*people with guns. How’s that work? > [@](#): > > You’re speaking completely irrationally. Every passive threat to your life is an infringement of your right to life? We already established that it’s fundamental, didn’t we? > [@](#): > > You would lobotomize and dismember every human being on earth? > You would remove all sharp objects and toxic substances from the face of the earth? > You would de-fang all venomous snakes and otherwise incapacitate all dangerous animals? > You would outlaw automobile, air, rail, and sea travel? > You would flatten the surface of the earth and all structures so that you could not fall to your death? Be careful who you’re accusing of irrationality, friend. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/237 "2019-01-14T19:01:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I can’t believe you aren’t smart enough to know that: > > (1) The Declaration of Independence is _not_ a legal document. It is not the source of our legal rights, whether you call them natural or otherwise. The Constitution makes no reference to the Declaration of Independence. > > (2) The Declaration of Independence does _not_ include a right to bear arms in its list of god-given rights. (1)Nobody claimed it was a legal document. Nor is it, of itself, a source of rights, nor does it claim to be. It is, in part, a declaration of the beliefs of the Founding Fathers as to where rights come from. (2) The DoI is not an exhaustive list of rights, nor does it claim to be. According to the FF, the Constitution is not the source of human rights, nor is the Declaration of Independence. Nor is the Bible, nor the Quran. Human beings are endowed by their Creator with certain rights. Governments are set up to protect those rights. That’s what it says. The rights come first, the government second. The idea that the government grants or withholds rights gets it exactly backward. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/238 "2019-01-14T19:02:37Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > The other main wail of the gun owners and the NRA is that Joe Blow will be defenseless when armed criminals come through the window to kill him, rape his daughter and pillage his house. Well, jeez, we are only talking about banning military-level hardware - and do you really want high-velocity rounds flying through the neighborhood when Joe hoses the intruder(s) with his beloved AR-15? And, as for the criminals, make it harder for them to get guns. They always can, always will, but in so many cases the perp just bought his weapons from a gun shop. Arms control is a permanent battle, not a one-off. There is nothing special or magical about the AR-15. It is not “military grade” except that it looks kind of like the ones the military use. It does not push the bullet faster than any other gun. And the AR-15 is actually [less likely](http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html)to [penetrate](https://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2013/11/04/ar-15-appropriate-home-defense-part-one-penetration-issues/)walls than even [shotguns and pistols](https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/ar-home-defense-clay-drywall-raw-meat-myth-busted/). It’s a bit counterintuitive. But your typical 9mm round is more than 2x as heavy as a 5.56mm rifle round. The latter is more damaging, but it’s simple physics, not a special property. Criminals typically [do not get guns from a gun shop](https://www.politifact.com/new-york/statements/2018/mar/12/john-faso/do-illegal-gun-owners-commit-most-gun-crime-rep-fa/), or if they do it is because another person illegally purchased it for them. Some can be done in education about signs of a straw purchase (but gun dealers are not and should not be mental health professionals!). There should also be more done with prosecution of illegal purchase, these rarely go to trial. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/239 "2019-01-14T19:08:27Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Criminals typically [do not get guns from a gun shop](https://www.politifact.com/new-york/statements/2018/mar/12/john-faso/do-illegal-gun-owners-commit-most-gun-crime-rep-fa/), or if they do it is because another person illegally purchased it for them. Every single one started as a legal weapon that got into illegal hands one way or another. Aside from perhaps a few basement-shop tinkerers, there is \*no \*illegal gun manufacturing industry. Any assertions that one would somehow crop up if the legal market were to shrink are fanciful. > [@Shodan](#): > > Human beings are endowed by their Creator with certain rights. Governments are set up to protect those rights. That’s what it says. The inalienable ones, the ones that needed emphasis, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. \*Not \*gun ownership. Glad to clear that up for ya. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/240 "2019-01-14T19:11:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The rights listed were life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. \*Not \*gun ownership, which in fact is in direct \*opposition \*to each of these rights held by others. > The question was _not_ about rights in general. :dubious: Again, the right claimed to be “God-given” is the one to gun ownership. Where does \*that \*come from? What other document or teachings even discuss it positively? What God created it? > > **Lumpy** , do please read the rest of the Constitution sometime. Lotsa good stuff in there. As I already said, I have. And as for life and liberty, gun owners believe that gun ownership helps support those first two rights. But since you apparently believe that safety and freedom come about magically by thinking good thoughts, I don’t see any common ground for discussion. ETA: let me ask you this- do you believe that the War of Independence was wrong? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510.md?page=13)