# Confiscation of guns: What do gun owners fear exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 10, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510 "2019-01-10T05:53:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/261 "2019-01-14T22:47:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In a democratic system, the government is us. You can’t have an operational society if you allow individuals to decide what their enforceable rights are. If your premises are true that 1. rights are arbitrarily defined by government, and 2. the government is us then your two sentences quoted above are nonsensical. > [@Acsenray](#): > > And right now, gun ownership in the United States is collectively a public health menace, in the same way that vaccine refusers are. It makes no sense to maximize the gun rights of a shrinking minority of people who want to own guns against the public health threats that we are all subject to. > > That should be the starting point of all discussions regarding gun rights. Not maximalist “just because I say so” positions. It’s not about so-called gun rights. The fundamental issue is the right to self defense. Do you believe there exists such a right? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/262 "2019-01-14T23:01:59Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > If your premises are true that > > 1. rights are arbitrarily defined by government, and > 2. the government is us > > then your two sentences quoted above are nonsensical. The government is us _acting collectively_ through democratic systems. That’s how everything in this society works. > [@](#): > > It’s not about so-called gun rights. The fundamental issue is the right to self defense. Do you believe there exists such a right? No right is absolute, not even self defense. I will not agree to allow you to have a nuclear weapon just because of your _personal perception_ that it is absolutely necessary for your self defense. I will not agree to let you kill all homeless people just because of your _personal perception_ that it is absolutely necessary for your self defense. I will not agree to let you ban all Muslims from your community just because of your _personal perception_ that it is absolutely necessary for your self defense. The same way, I will not agree to allow you to own and carry just any manner of deadly weapon based solely on your _personal perception_ that it is absolutely necessary for your self defense. The very existence of those firearms in your possession statistically affects the public health of everyone. I do not agree that you have an absolute right to own or carry or use them without any limits based on our collective, democratic decision-making. I don’t believe that there should be “stand your ground laws” or a castle doctrine that maximize self-defense. There should be a duty to retreat. You should have to prove in court that your use of deadly force was unavoidable for your self-defense. In fact, I don’t believe that self-defense should count as a “not guilty” verdict. If you intentionally caused another human being’s death, you should be found guilty of some form of homicide and then your punishment should be adjusted according to whether the degree of deadly force you used was _absolutely_ necessary for you to preserve your own or someone else’s life. So your _personal perception_ that you _need_ firearms for self defense must be balanced against _everyone else’s_ needs for a society with overall fewer deaths resulting from the proliferation of firearms. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/263 "2019-01-14T23:04:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > …And right now, gun ownership in the United States is collectively a public health menace, in the same way that vaccine refusers are. It makes no sense to maximize the gun rights of a shrinking minority of people who want to own guns against the public health threats that we are all subject to… My having a pistol in the dresser drawer isn’t a threat to you. Some guy walking around with one might be, and I don’t have a problem with putting a stop to that. I weigh 110, and am five feet tall. If someone sneaks into my house to rob me, I’ll need more than a baseball bat. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/264 "2019-01-14T23:08:47Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > My having a pistol in the dresser drawer isn’t a threat to you. Allowing whoever wants to to have pistols in their dresser drawers creates a statistically higher risk for society that some number of those pistols will cause deaths that otherwise wouldn’t have happened. That’s enough for me to regulate all people having pistols in their dresser drawers, regardless of how safe they personally perceive their pistols-in-dresser-drawers to be. > [@](#): > > I weigh 110, and am five feet tall. If someone sneaks into my house to rob me, I’ll need more than a baseball bat. I would want a study showing how statistically likely it is for you to need a pistol in your dresser drawer to defend your life against a house robber. And it matters to me whether that person merely robs you or robs you and also does physical harm to you. Only living things—not mere property—should be defensible through deadly force. I would prefer that you get robbed and no one get hurt than you not get robbed and the robber get killed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/265 "2019-01-14T23:57:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > According to the FF, the Constitution is not the source of human rights, nor is the Declaration of Independence. Nor is the Bible, nor the Quran. > > Human beings are endowed by their Creator with certain rights. Governments are set up to protect those rights. That’s what it says. > > The rights come first, the government second. The idea that the government grants or withholds rights gets it exactly backward. Are you arguing that the Second Amendment is meaningless and it doesn’t matter whether or not it’s repealed? Because if God created the right to own firearms then it doesn’t matter what the government says on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/266 "2019-01-15T00:09:22Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > That _is_ the feared result. Do you want to live in a country that can so easily repeal it’s Bill of Rights and send its police forces into peoples’ homes to take away their personal property. You don’t see that as in and of itself something to fear? And, without recompense. Read this thread\* and the law Kamala Harris said was legal in SF. All guns seized with no recompense. Not even like in Australia. Also think of the thousands of extra police and extra prisons, even if only 5% dont comply. - [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=866869&page=12](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=866869&page=12) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/267 "2019-01-15T00:12:23Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > When people talk about the government sending people door-to-door to confiscate guns, I’ve always assumed that every gun owner would deny having any. Right? So, what then? No Knock searches, doors smashed down. Houses tossed. Owners handcuffed on the floor until search is done. Dogs shot. Cats escaping. Anything else potentially illegal seized. Perhaps computers - they might have a gun inventory. Jobs lost, lives ruined. Bankruptcy. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/268 "2019-01-15T00:14:47Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Oh OK, I see. But posters in this thread have said that they would use the guns against those government agents seeking to take them. That’s a bust. > . A very few will. There are **100 Million gun owners.** Somewhere I read about 4% of Americans are sociopaths. So, then, let’s say 4 million gun owners, a tiny %- resist violently. That’s FOUR million Wacos. How many police shot? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/269 "2019-01-15T00:15:59Z")
I also believe that police carrying and use of deadly weapons should be much more restricted. Cops should have to walk the beat unarmed unless they have a specific indication that a deadly threat is present. And any police-involved death should go to trial, with no presumption of necessity. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/270 "2019-01-15T00:17:08Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I do have to agree with\*\* Inigo\*\* on one thing, namely that the temptation would be there to say, we got the guns off the street, now we don’t need to address in depth the mental health/family disfunction/socioeconomic hardship/hate issues that lead to the weapons being misused. Given the choice on where to spend the resources I’d go for those first… but you and I know the problem is there is not the will to do that either. Right. The first big Prohibition- Booze- failed disastrously. The next big Prohibition- War on drugs- is failing disastrously. I cant see anything good coming out of a third. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/271 "2019-01-15T00:19:49Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > 1- A silly argument. You could say why have any laws when criminals don’t respect them. Gun bans work in most of the world… About half. They work quite well in nations with no history of a gun culture, where privately owned guns were never common. And even there, rarely are there a actual BAN- usually, you can buy handguns with a permit and a license. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/272 "2019-01-15T00:22:53Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Have the gun control laws we currently have been successful at preventing gun crimes? If not, what indication do we have that new gun control laws will succeed in doing so? Nope, in fact the opposite. But there’s always an excuse. “The ban wasnt strong enough or wasnt large enough”. Even here in CA, with the strongest gun control laws in America, several of which are of doubtful constitutionality, violent crime is higher than in states with open carry, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/273 "2019-01-15T00:24:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Serious question: If the government does go door-to-door confiscating guns, would gun owners _really_ open fire on federal agents? I suspect only a very few would. But with 100 Million gun owners, a very small % comes to a LOT of Wacos. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/274 "2019-01-15T00:26:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You have no concept of how many rounds of ammunition are already in private hands, do you? or how easy it is to reload ammo. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/275 "2019-01-15T00:28:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No. By definition all law-abiding people would turn in their guns if there was a law prohibiting guns. Anybody who kept a gun after that would no longer be law abiding. > > The same process that stops other crimes. After you enact the law, you enforce it. The illegal owning of guns would be stopped by the same means that we stop the illegal robbing of banks, the illegal sale of drugs, and the illegal committing of murder. > … Like being gay wasnt “law abiding” a few decades ago, amiright? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/276 "2019-01-15T00:42:50Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Several in the thread have mentioned the Siege of Waco as the government tyranny “we” need our guns to protect against. For the young’uns, here’s an excerpt from Wikipedia to give some insight into these all-American gunlovers that the oppressive Feds besieged. > The actions of the jackbooted gun-grabbing state seem, if anything, over-restrained here. I’m rather befuddled that the events at Waco are cited by gun nuts as a point in their favor. > > (No, I don’t know know who Anna Hughes is either.) Actually, no Waco- is held up as a example of the ATF going nutso, they could have quietly arrested the leader at any time. The example gun nuts use is Ruby Ridge: > **[Ruby Ridge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge)** > > U.S. government > Ruby Ridge was the site of a siege of a cabin occupied by the Weaver family in Boundary County, Idaho, in August 1992. On August 21, deputies of the United States Marshals Service (USMS) came to arrest Randy Weaver under a bench warrant after his failure to appear on federal firearms charges. > During a surveillance operation, officer Art Roderick shot Weaver's dog when it ran at them and then pointed his rifle at Weaver's son, Samuel, who was armed. Samuel fired back at the mar... Where a otherwise law abiding man was set up by the ATF to saw off a shotgun 1/4 inch too short ended up in the deaths of Deputy US Marshal William Francis Degan, age 42, the Weavers’ son Samuel (Sammy), age 14,the Weaver’s family dog and 43-year-old wife Vicki . and _"In June 1990 an ATF agent, Byerly, attempted to use the sawed-off shotgun charge as leverage to get Weaver to act as an informant for his investigation into the Aryan Nations.[20] When Weaver refused to become “a snitch”, the ATF filed the gun charges in June 1990, also claiming Weaver was a bank robber with criminal convictions[27] (those claims were false: at that time Weaver had no criminal record, and the subsequent Senate investigation found: “Weaver was not a suspect in any bank robberies.”[28])… RRTF report to the DOJ’s Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR) of June 1994 stated unequivocally in its conclusion (in its executive summary) that the rules that allowed the second shot to have taken place did not satisfy constitutional standards for legal use of deadly force…Weaver was ultimately acquitted of all charges except missing his original court date and violating his bail conditions, for which he was sentenced to 18 months and fined $10,000…FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi was indicted for manslaughter in 1997 by the Boundary County, Idaho, prosecutor Denise Woodbury just before the statute of limitations for the crime of manslaughter expired,…_ I expect about a million Ruby Ridges. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/277 "2019-01-15T00:45:53Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > This is weird and borderline unbelievable. Are you sure they aren’t trolling? I also found the post astounding but IIRC it was from a routine gun lover, not sarcastic. Is yours an offer to bet money on whether I can find that post in the archive? How much money are we talking about? > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > But regardless, it doesn’t negate the reality of the human right to self defense. 😕 In what bewildered universe is the debate about _Do humans have the “right” to self defense?_ My thesis is simply _The obsession of so many Americans with guns implies something very pathetic and contemptible about American culture._ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/278 "2019-01-15T00:46:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But if the 2nd Amendment is repealed, and laws are passed to confiscate those guns (per the OP hypothetical,) then _those rights do not legally **exist** _ anymore. But if the 1st Amendment is repealed, and laws are passed to force everyone to become a evangelical Christian then _those rights do not legally **exist** _ anymore. But if the 1st Amendment is repealed, and laws are passed to confiscate all presses and computers- then _those rights do not legally **exist** _ anymore. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/279 "2019-01-15T00:50:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you want to be a member of the National Guard, just go find a recruiter and raise your right hand. That’s all a member of The People has to do. Well, then learn what it really means to be well-regulated, too. > > You do seem to be quite unclear about what the writers of the Constitution meant for a militia to do. They did tell us, though. Please read the entire document, find out, and get back to us. The National Guard is part of the Federal army. It is, _in no way_, the Militia the Constitution is talking about. It is what the Militia in the Constitution was supposed to \*protect against. \*Various states still have a State militia, and there are legal private militias- many of who are run by pretty far out people, true. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/280 "2019-01-15T00:51:33Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Many of you gunners regarded guns as the most important issue in the 2016 Presidential Election; and voted for Trump. > > Are gun rights still the most important political issue facing the USA today? Would you still vote for Trump? I didnt. And maybe half of the gun owners voted for Trump. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510.md?page=15)