# Confiscation of guns: What do gun owners fear exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 10, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510 "2019-01-10T05:53:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/281 "2019-01-15T00:53:07Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I… > Here, _in increasing order_,are [Murder rates per 100,000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) for some selected countries. > … Yes. _Selected countries_. This is called “cherry picking”. :rolleyes:Now, select ALL nations and the USA falls right in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/282 "2019-01-15T00:55:00Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > …They always can, always will, but in so many cases the perp just bought his weapons from a gun shop… Nope. They mostly buy in the black market or steal them. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/283 "2019-01-15T01:44:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But if the 1st Amendment is repealed, and laws are passed to force everyone to become a evangelical Christian then _those rights do not legally **exist** _ anymore. > > But if the 1st Amendment is repealed, and laws are passed to confiscate all presses and computers- then _those rights do not legally **exist** _ anymore. Uhh … yes? That seems self-evident. It’s a circumstance I would oppose and fight to prevent, perhaps even leave the country if I lost. But it seems nothing more than a simple statement of fact. If the society doesn’t give you a way to enforce a right, then you don’t have that right. It’s not a right. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/284 "2019-01-15T01:48:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Like being gay wasnt “law abiding” a few decades ago, amiright? 😛 Sure, some laws are bad laws. And we should repeal the bad laws. I’ve been saying that throughout this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/285 "2019-01-15T01:53:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No Knock searches, doors smashed down. Houses tossed. Owners handcuffed on the floor until search is done. Dogs shot. Cats escaping. Anything else potentially illegal seized. Perhaps computers - they might have a gun inventory. > > Jobs lost, lives ruined. Bankruptcy. People spontaneously bursting into flames. Zombies rising from the grave. Rivers turning into blood. The Earth crashing into the sun. Erections lasting for more than four hours. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/286 "2019-01-15T01:55:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _The obsession of so many Americans with guns implies something very pathetic and contemptible about American culture._ Yes. I say that as someone proud to be American. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/287 "2019-01-15T02:45:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes. _Selected countries_. This is called “cherry picking”. :rolleyes:Now, select ALL nations and the USA falls right in the middle. Cherry-picking? Did you note that a total of TWO (2) countries in ALL of Europe have a murder rate higher than the U.S.A.? T-W-O. With a T. Russia and Ukraine. The U.S. also has a higher murder rate than Israel, New Zealand, Australia, Canada. These countries are what adult thinkers call “the industrialized democracies.” South Korea, Taiwan, Hongkong, etc. etc. — all have lower murder rates than the U.S.A. Even countries like Turkey, Pakistan, Kenya, Kazakhstan, Somalia(!) have lower murder rates than the U.S.A. according to that Wiki page. Chile, Vietnam, Lebanon — countries striving to undo past problems — all have lower murder rates than the U.S. Cambodia? 1.84 murders per 100,000! Oh! I get it! You don’t want to compare the U.S.A. with its “peers”, the industrialized democracies, or even countries like Lebanon or Vietnam. You want to compare it with banana republics, countries with especially weak or corrupt governance, and countries with severe on-going civil violence. Congratulations to **DrDeth** ’s America!! “We have fewer murders than Colombia, Iraq and Haiti.” Yay!!! (Or is it Booo! ? When we MAGA, will America be happily up there with Haiti and Chad?) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/288 "2019-01-15T03:31:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Cherry-picking? Did you note that a total of TWO (2) countries in ALL of Europe have a murder rate higher than the U.S.A.? T-W-O. With a T. Russia and Ukraine. T… > > Oh! I get it! You don’t want to compare the U.S.A. with its “peers”, the industrialized democracies, or even countries like Lebanon or Vietnam. You want to compare it with banana republics, countries with especially weak or corrupt governance, and countries with severe on-going civil violence. Europe? We are not _in_ Europe, as perhaps you noticed. 😕 How about comparing the Americas? of the 50 some odd nations in the Americas, the USA has the 6th lowest murder rate. Are they all “banana republics”? That’s, err, umm, well, I’d call it “racist”, but… But no, I compared _all nations_, nations which perhaps you and mr trump call “shiholes”.:dubious: But I don’t. No cherry picking. All. Every single last one. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/289 "2019-01-15T03:35:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Europe? We are not _in_ Europe, as perhaps you noticed. 😕 How about comparing the Americas? of the 50 some odd nations in the Americas, the USA has the 6th lowest murder rate. Are they all “banana republics”? That’s, err, umm, well, I’d call it “racist”, but… > > But no, I compared _all nations_, nations which perhaps you and mr trump call “shiholes”.:dubious: But I don’t. > > No cherry picking. All. Every single last one. Ha. No worries. I understand you perfectly now. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/290 "2019-01-15T13:06:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The National Guard is part of the Federal army. It is, _in no way_, the Militia the Constitution is talking about. [Since 1903, friend.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Act_of_1903) > [@](#): > > It is what the Militia in the Constitution was supposed to \*protect against. Better go read Article 1, Section 8. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/291 "2019-01-15T13:13:24Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I would argue that the issue is not so much the proliferation of weapons, but the distribution. Not how many there are, but _who_ has them. Yes, only Good Guys should have them, not the Bad Guys. Gotcha. Now how do we tell the difference? > [@](#): > > I’ve never noticed anyone shuddering in fear or cowering from my presence, so I think I’m okay. You carry concealed, right? Try carrying open and see what happens. > [@](#): > > It must be a miserable existence to view all of humanity as aspiring bloodthirsty killers. For the record, I don’t have any victims. Yet. There are multiple news stories every day about gun owners who killed for the first time. Why aren’t you going to be one? > [@](#): > > But, if I ever did have the need to transport a firearm openly on my person and in view of the public – out of respect and concern for my neighbors, I would carry it safely (unloaded with the safety on) and discreetly so as to arouse as little alarm as possible. Thereby rendering it useless. So why bother to carry it at all? For someone who \*is \*armed, seeing it anyway creates a risk to _you_. > [@](#): > > Whether “bad guys” have guns or not, it is fundamentally unjust for the state to inhibit my ability to defend myself. You keep avoiding the issue: Does everyone else have the right to defend themselves from _you_? > [@](#): > > What you keep missing or overlooking, that I have been saying over and over is that we already have the ability to kill each other even without tools. I get that fine, but you’ve trapped yourself in a cycle of middle-excluding, and if that’s conscious then it’s merely evasion. The claim is only that fewer deadly weapons will result in fewer deaths. It isn’t binary. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/292 "2019-01-15T13:43:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you arguing that the Second Amendment is meaningless and it doesn’t matter whether or not it’s repealed? Because if God created the right to own firearms then it doesn’t matter what the government says on the subject. What do you mean? Of course it matters. > [@](#): > > …whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. That God granted the right doesn’t mean that the government can’t try to interfere with it. And sometimes it does. So yes, obviously it matters what the government says. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/293 "2019-01-15T14:07:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What do you mean? Of course it matters. > That God granted the right doesn’t mean that the government can’t try to interfere with it. And sometimes it does. So yes, obviously it matters what the government says. > > Regards, > Shodan From the “God” of which religious sect did these rights come from? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/294 "2019-01-15T14:12:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So yes, obviously it matters what the government says. Good to know. Here’s what the Founding Fathers \*did \*say: > [@](#): > > The Congress shall have Power \* \* \* To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions. \*Suppress \*insurrections. \*Not \*enable them. Glad to help clear that up for ya. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/295 "2019-01-15T14:28:35Z")
Were the Founders expecting insurrections, or just covering all the bases? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/296 "2019-01-15T14:33:43Z")
Of course, and not just slaves and Indians. The main impetus for calling the Constitutional Convention was Shays’ Rebellion, which brought into focus the inadequacy of the Articles of Confederation structure for responding to it. That was a loose group of white male rural types with guns who thought it would be better to resolve their grievances that way than via the still-nascent democratic system. Sound familiar at all? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/297 "2019-01-15T14:51:59Z")
Sounds like they had a [valid complaint](https://www.history.com/topics/early-us/shays-rebellion), though. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/298 "2019-01-15T14:52:55Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I also found the post astounding but IIRC it was from a routine gun lover, not sarcastic. Is yours an offer to bet money on whether I can find that post in the archive? How much money are we talking about? LOL, no bet. I believe you. > [@septimus](#): > > 😕 In what bewildered universe is the debate about > _Do humans have the “right” to self defense?_ Another poster seemed to be strongly implying that. > [@septimus](#): > > My thesis is simply > _The obsession of so many Americans with guns implies something very pathetic and contemptible about American culture._ It would, if true. How would you quantify “obsession”? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/299 "2019-01-15T15:02:02Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > … But, if I ever did have the need to transport a firearm openly on my person and in view of the public – out of respect and concern for my neighbors, I would carry it safely (unloaded with the safety on) … Shhhh. Don’t let the other gun nuts hear you say that. Recently, an FBI agent was in a bar doing back flips and discharged his Glock prematurely. (Recall that a Glock has no safety.) I suggested that, assuming he had to bring his sweetheart along as drinking buddy — she’d get too lonely safe in the car’s glove compartment — it might be prudent to remove the round from the chamber before doing backflips. I am not a gun expert but it seemed like accidental firings might be a bigger risk than Osama bin Laden showing up and challenging FBI agent to a quick draw contest. I was told in no uncertain terms that I was frightfully ignorant, and would never be admitted to the Gun Nuts Club. _ **Nobody ever uncocks their Glock.** _ A good shooter could take out two Arabs posing as bartenders in the time it would take to recock the Glock. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510/300 "2019-01-15T15:03:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, only Good Guys should have them, not the Bad Guys. Gotcha. Now how do we tell the difference? Bad Guys wear uniforms, good guys don’t 😉 > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You carry concealed, right? Try carrying open and see what happens. I rarely carry. This is rural Alabama. I don’t think anyone would bat an eye if I were to open carry. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yet. There are multiple news stories every day about gun owners who killed for the first time. Why aren’t you going to be one? People commit homicide for the first time every day with no guns involved. Why aren’t you going to be one? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Thereby rendering it useless. So why bother to carry it at all? For someone who \*is \*armed, seeing it anyway creates a risk to _you_. Well shit, it was your hypothetical. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You keep avoiding the issue: Does everyone else have the right to defend themselves from _you_? I don’t believe in restricting others’ right to self defense. But, I disagree with your premise that mere possession of a weapon constitutes an active threat. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I get that fine, but you’ve trapped yourself in a cycle of middle-excluding, and if that’s conscious then it’s merely evasion. The claim is only that fewer deadly weapons will result in fewer deaths. It isn’t binary. Fewer weapons _may_ result in fewer deaths, or it may not. But how do you go about magicking away these weapons without massive violations of basic human rights? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confiscation-of-guns-what-do-gun-owners-fear-exactly/827510.md?page=16)