Oh, well, that was one of the things that DrDeth noted in his post that you replied to.
Why did you choose to ask about voting rights instead of continuing the discussion based on what you claim you already knew?
Did you want to put forth any theories on why they are poorer, on average? Personally, I primarily blame the way society has treated minorities, but there are other theories that put more of the burden of fault on the minority.
Desperate people in desperate situations do things that you or I, in a non-desperate situation, may consider to be irrational.
For instance, when I turned 15, I went and got a job as a busser, then I had some money to spend on things I wanted to spend it on.
In a different circumstance, I may have found that, in order to support my family, I start working with a local drug gang at age 12 or so.
I’m a bit more likely to be exposed to violence, the criminal justice system, and even less likely to get a higher education or even a respectable job.
I see no reason why gun owners in rural or suburban areas would object to gun control measures enacted within city limits.
If a gun owner feels that they are being punished for the actions of a specific group, due to a city implementing gun control measures, then they are ignorant and have been lied to. They are creating and defining the us vs them dichotomy by directly interfering in the ability for “us” to solve “our problem”.
I don’t disagree that they feel this way, you are probably completely correct. It is just that feeling this way is not reflective of reality, rationality, or logic, and it only contributes to further divisions that they are driving. What I disagree with is coddling people who think in these ignorant and wrong ways, and deferring to their beliefs over the reality that others have to deal with.
The post I was commenting on (#328) listed a bunch of things that he theorized might contribute to the high black murder rate. One of those things (the most absurd one IMHO) was “voting rights constantly threatened due to Jim Crow laws”. In other words, it WAS “one of the things that DrDeth noted in his post that * replied to”.
I’m not sure what your complaint is.
Your side doesn’t stop at city limits. Cities and states that support gun control complain incessantly that the guns are coming from outside their jurisdiction, and they push to have their gun control schemes imposed on those other jurisdictions.
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Hahahaha. You claim that people who don’t believe as you tell them to are ignorant. You claim they have been lied to. I find it to be just the opposite. Many anti-2nd zealots are proud of their ignorance of firearms, and of firearm issues from the point of firearm owners. They repeatedly ask the same questions as if the answers will magically change. They tell 2nd Amendment supporters that their concerns are not valid, or important. And they are shocked to find out that they still do not have the votes to change the 2nd Amendment. Maybe it’s because We the People don’t believe your side’s arguments?
Jim Crow is just one of many things which shows entrenched racism in the South. The *fact *of that entrenched racism causes hatred & poverty and thus more crime .
I sort of doubt it’s solely poverty; the Hispanic community doesn’t seem to have the same murder and violence rates, even where they’re just as poor. Higher than whites, sure, but not as high as the black community.
And I don’t think you can just say “Racism!” and have that just explain away everything negative that’s going on with the black community. It’s more nuanced than that, I would bet.
For example, one thing I’ve read that was interesting to consider is the contention that the Southern culture as a whole, and the black community in particular is an “honor culture”, like say… medieval Scotland and Ireland, where there are expectations of a certain code of behavior, and a willingness to meet breaches and perceived disrespect with violence, which explains the Southern and black propensity for violence. This is in contrast to a guilt culture, where things are more internalized, and less about one’s own public perception.
So why are blacks poor and prone to crime outside of the South, in deep blue states where their diversity is celebrated and racism has been extinguished? Is it possible, just as food for thought, that the causes of crime and poverty are a bit more nuanced and complicated than your simple-minded explanation of “racism”?
The thread title asks what gun owners fear. We get it now - they fear black people with guns.
In post #310 you said you presumed evil intent from every gun owner. Did that include blacks? If so, then it is fair to say that you are afraid of black people with guns, just like a gun owner.
Or maybe you didn’t mean it. In that case, clarify - are you also afraid of Hispanics with guns? Asians? Episcopalians? Left-handed Rosicrucians?
Regards,
Shodan
That’s an incredibly racist thing to say. :eek: Poor people of all skin colors have a need for self-defense just as much as rich people who can afford armed body guards do. Democrats, and anti-2nd Amendment zealots, intend to ban firearms from everyone, including black people. They might as well chant that people don’t kill people, inanimate objects kill people.
Who’s been talking here about blacks and their propensity for violence? Y’all.
There’s nothing anyone posted that would lead you to this racist conclusion.
I don’t think I can roll my eyes hard enough.
In my experience, there are a few motivations to own guns, only one of which is outright fear.
[ul]
[li]Sport users- hunters, shooting sports enthusiasts, plinkers.[/li][li]Collectors - they like the engineering and history behind the weapons and like shooting them some too.[/li][li]Fear types- these are the ones who are afraid of usually one of two things- either criminals, or the government. [/li][li]Gun-as-tool people- these are the people who own guns because they’re practical tools for their line of work- farmers, for example have need of guns to eliminate vermin and predators.[/li][/ul]
The government-fearing ones are usually worried about tyranny, and IMO, are the source of a lot of the problem. They’ve set up their internal narrative such that they’re defending freedom by owning guns as a bulwark against a potential tyrannical central government. Which is fine and good, but the problem comes in that they then perceive any suggestion or attempt at controlling their access to said guns as the start of the aforementioned tyranny. So they dig in their heels as hard as they possibly can, convinced that they’re in the right, and on the front line of defending our democracy and way of life against tyranny.
Usually these types overlap in any given gun owner- it’s probably hard to find a gun-as-tool owner who doesn’t also hunt or engage in shooting sports. And the fear-driven sorts are heavily overlapped with the collector types as well.
So why are they talking about blacks? Please note that their stated fear of “government tyranny” didn’t arise, in recent times, until the civil rights movement, with forced desegregation and the forced end of Jim Crow etc., and has been parallel with it since.
So, are you afraid of black people with guns, or not? You claim that gun owners are afraid of black people with guns because of the above. What’s your reason?
Regards,
Shodan
Since you ask so politely: I fear *assholes *with guns. Color isn’t an issue.
Is English your first language? In my dialect ‘extinguish’ has a sense of finality, as in a dictionary’s example:
Do you really think racism has been extinguished in “deep blue” states? Are you well informed enough to know that over 4 million voters in relatively enlightened California cast a vote for the racist President in 2016?
In post #310 you said you assumed evil intent by anyone who possessed a gun.
So either you assume anyone with a gun is an asshole, in which case you assume any black person with a gun has evil intentions and is an asshole. Or you only fear someone with a gun who is an asshole, and what you said in post #310 was incorrect.
So, assume two gun owners, one black and one white. Both assholes, neither assholes, or is one an asshole and the other isn’t? And how do you tell?
Regards,
Shodan
Me? No. I think lots of liberals are racist assholes. I was having a conversation with DrDeth though, in which he seemed to be suggesting racism was a problem unique to the South. I was trying to highlight the silliness of that position.