# Conflct between 1st and 6th Amendments **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667 "2012-02-03T18:22:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TripleFail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@TripleFail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TripleFail)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/21 "2012-02-04T06:39:27Z")
Obviously I don’t think think everything presented in courtroom will be the absolute and complete truth but the if one side do lie the other side will try to pick it apart. The press don’t have that, in fact more often then not they just and copy and paste each others lie. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/22 "2012-02-05T00:38:15Z")
What, I should know everyone in my Federal Court District? ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/23 "2012-02-05T00:46:47Z")
I wonder if I could ask for a jury of all Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/24 "2012-02-05T00:51:05Z")
I think the attorneys are allowed to lie. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/25 "2012-02-05T01:21:25Z")
Freedom of the press is the method whereby the goals and rights of the Sixth amendment are secured. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/26 "2012-02-05T01:23:42Z")
> [@robinson](#): > > I think the attorneys are allowed to lie. No they are not. They can be misleading, but they can’t lie. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/27 "2012-02-05T01:40:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No they are not. > > They can be misleading, but they can’t lie. Prosecutors can. They can tell the jury that the accused is guilty, and exactly how he committed the crime, even if the defendant is factually innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/28 "2012-02-05T01:49:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Prosecutors can. They can tell the jury that the accused is guilty, and exactly how he committed the crime, even if the defendant is factually innocent. Really? If they know for a fact the defendant is innocent they most certainly are not allowed to lie. Moreover those who do lie to juries can and have been sanctioned by State Bar Associations. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/29 "2012-02-05T02:45:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really? > > If they know for a fact the defendant is innocent they most certainly are not allowed to lie. It is still a lie if they do not know for a fact that the defendant is guilty, yet they tell the jury he is, and describe exactly how he did it. Moreover, it is their job to make the jury believe the defendant is guilty, when they do not have that factual knowledge. Otherwise, all prosecutors would be subject to sanctions whenever the defendant is found not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/30 "2012-02-05T02:50:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It is still a lie if they do not know for a fact that the defendant is guilty, yet they tell the jury he is, and describe exactly how he did it. Moreover, it is their job to make the jury believe the defendant is guilty, when they do not have that factual knowledge. Otherwise, all prosecutors would be subject to sanctions whenever the defendant is found not guilty. Then by the same token all defense attorneys would be sanctioned for proclaiming their clients were innocent or elsewhere at the time of said crime whenever their clients were found guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/31 "2012-02-05T03:14:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Then by the same token all defense attorneys would be sanctioned for proclaiming their clients were innocent or elsewhere at the time of said crime whenever their clients were found guilty. Exactly. And since that never happens, then lying by attorneys is common, and not prohibited. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/32 "2012-02-05T03:16:11Z")
Don’t later amendments trump earlier amendments? I don’t think that’s been the practice concerning the bill of rights, but isn’t it technically correct? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/33 "2012-02-05T03:17:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Exactly. And since that never happens, then lying by attorneys is common, and not prohibited. With all due respect, you have a dramatically different definition of “lying” than most people. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/34 "2012-02-05T03:39:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > With all due respect, you have a dramatically different definition of “lying” than most people. I don’t think you know what most people think. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/35 "2012-02-05T03:56:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It is still a lie if they do not know for a fact that the defendant is guilty, yet they tell the jury he is, and describe exactly how he did it. Moreover, it is their job to make the jury believe the defendant is guilty, when they do not have that factual knowledge. Otherwise, all prosecutors would be subject to sanctions whenever the defendant is found not guilty. It is up to the jury to find the defendent guilty or not guilty. There is no way for the prosecuter to lie in your example. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/36 "2012-02-05T04:19:33Z")
Contrary to what has been said above, both prosecutors and defense counsel are officers of the court with an overriding duty to the Court. They cannot tell or elicit testimony which they know or have reasonable grounds to suspect is false. Tbey cannot lie or mislead the Court. I am a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/37 "2012-02-05T05:35:15Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I think that the “impartial” part of that has had the definition expanded to such an extent that it hinders the process. Way too many jurors are excluded if they have any knowledge of the subject for example. Lawyers and doctors are regularly tossed off of the jury, as are PhDs. Um, and Engineers as well, the third profession. IME almost no one I know who is a degreed Engineer has made it through jury selection. Over drinks a former defense attorney told me once that she always challenged Engineers because “their analytical-oriented minds would see through any smokescreen (she) could throw up.” Personally I’m torn about how I’d feel about being excluded. If I had to serve for weeks or months on a jury it could actually destroy much of my career, or at least set me back a long time - but at the same time I really want to do my duty and serve. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/38 "2012-02-05T09:01:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I don’t think you know what most people think. Maybe not, but I think he’s right about your definition of “lying.” ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/39 "2012-02-05T18:51:40Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I think that the “impartial” part of that has had the definition expanded to such an extent that it hinders the process. Way too many jurors are excluded if they have any knowledge of the subject for example. Lawyers and doctors are regularly tossed off of the jury, as are PhDs. > > The first 12 who don’t know the people on either side of the room should be the jury IMHO. In our quest for impartiality, we have ended up losing out on the jury of peers. I agree. If I ruled for one day, I would change jury selection as follows: 1. Pull a pool of 50 people. Vet them for criminal history and replace anyone who gets bounced. 2. Defense and state get 6 challenges each. If none of them duplicated, that would leave a pool of 38 remaining. 3. Their numbers go into a fishbowl. Defense pulls 6, state pulls 6. There’s your jury. Judge pulls 2 more if alternates are needed. Swear 'em in, seat 'em and get on with it. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667/40 "2012-02-05T18:54:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It is still a lie if they do not know for a fact that the defendant is guilty, yet they tell the jury he is, and describe exactly how he did it. Moreover, it is their job to make the jury believe the defendant is guilty, when they do not have that factual knowledge. Otherwise, all prosecutors would be subject to sanctions whenever the defendant is found not guilty. If they don’t have the factual knowledge, the case won’t go to court and the charges will be dropped. The state’s attorneys won’t go into court on a coin toss case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conflct-between-1st-and-6th-amendments/611667.md?page=3)