# Confronting racism in oneself **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2026, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215 "2026-05-19T17:58:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/241 "2026-08-24T09:41:55Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I’m not addressing, say, Japanese on Korean bigotry, because it’s America that is in a dire crisis and as an American voter it’s my responsibility to care about it. I know that this is an older thread, but as a human you don’t care about other countries or is America just so special? > [@Johanna](#): > > I’m not putting on airs, I don’t think I’m better than anyone else, and I keep saying that we’re all in this boat together. No, _we_ are not. You are excluding most of the world, but to be fair, I think most of Americans are like that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/242 "2026-08-24T09:58:46Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > No, _we_ are not. You are excluding most of the world, but to be fair, I think most of Americans are like that. I don’t think that’s fair. There’s the old Biblical admonition to take the beam out of your own eye before removing the splinter from your neighbor’s, and that’s what I see @Johanna advocating. Directing criticism directly at your own community doesn’t require apathy about other communities; it just means that you’re focused on where you can do the most good. I think reading her words charitably (and in general reading everyone’s words with the best possible interpretation in mind) can avoid unnecessary conflict. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/243 "2026-08-24T10:31:27Z")
I donno. I would have felt different had the response not been “because it’s America that is in a dire crisis” rather than something acknowleging that other places have problems but they want to focus on American problems because it’s close to home. There are a lot of places in the world that are facing dire crises. Many. I’ve got a good from from Uygur who has fled there because they would face possible getting “disappeared” by the Chinese for their political views. The political views that the ruling Chinese don’t like are expressed by a minority who aren’t Han Chinese and don’t want their culture eliminated. Yes, really shitty things are happening in America but there are ways of saying that you want to keep the discussion on that in such a way that you aren’t discounting real problems elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/244 "2026-08-24T15:03:48Z")
Saying “Black Lives Matter” doesn’t mean other people don’t matter, it means the speaker wants to focus on that topic. We don’t have to help everyone to help a particular group. Likewise, saying “American Racism is a Problem” is not saying there’s no problems elsewhere, it’s focusing on a particular issue. We don’t have to solve every problem to address a particular one. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/245 "2026-08-24T15:08:47Z")
It’s the usual whataboutism. It’s possible that there is no topic in the world safe from whataboutism. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/246 "2026-08-24T15:53:14Z")
Another I dunno. In her stated view there is no racism other than the concepts created “in the 15th century by Prince Henry and Eanes de Zarura to justify enslaving Africans” … the rest is not only not her focus; to her way of thinking it is not. Whatever. Thread revived by @Eric1 I gotta say, six teens unknown to me “slinging the n-word on a street corner next to me” I for one am _not_ going to go out and “cast on them” … and I would not expect the result of doing so to be a polite discussion about how, Officer Krumpke, we are only using these words because “the US government seems to consistently espouse hatred under our administration” Glad it went that way. That it got to where stern emails to officials could be written, Now slinging at a person, harassing someone, yeah, I won’t be the not my problem guy. I risk some after first calling police. I know the teens and more importantly their families, yeah, probably. Random teens on the street? I personally would not have judged that wise. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/247 "2026-08-24T17:23:58Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Likewise, saying “American Racism is a Problem” is not saying there’s no problems elsewhere, it’s focusing on a particular issue. We don’t have to solve every problem to address a particular one. I’ve read a good portion of this thread (not all, sorry) but you’re expressing here a general feeling I’ve had that there are at any given time 10,000 worthy causes and how do you know what gets your attention right now? So I had a pretty thorough progressive anti-racist education, as I have an MSW from a school that required a full year of coursework on the US Black-white binary. And you’d better believe people made some noise about this being the only issue that was required coursework. Well, I happen to think it was important but I was surprised there was no similar requirement for the history and oppression of women, considering 98% of us were women and social work as a profession was largely created by women. I was raised in an openly racist culture, though my mother was outspoken against racism, it was pretty pervasive everywhere else. And I’ve always brought forth the idea that everyone else has to deal with the same kinds of effects of my upbringing - racist thoughts to be rooted out and so forth. But actually not everyone had family members in the KKK so how do I know what’s on their hearts? There is a messaging problem, yes. There’s a sanctimony/dogma problem, yes. But I’ve seen so many people protest that they don’t have a racist bone in their body go on to vote for huge flaming racists and racist policies which very much calls their self-assessment into question. And what galls me isn’t even voting for racists per se but the vehemence with which they defend the racism. I hate that. Can’t you just say, “Look, I had to compromise my values here because this other value I had took precedence.” But that’s not what they do. They don’t take accountability. Anyhow, I try to build anti-racism into my work whenever possible (increasingly difficult in current political federal grants climate) and work against transphobia and all the isms I can muster, but inevitably some issue is going to get left in the dust - many issues in fact - and then we can get into stuff like “Why am I playing video games right now instead of fighting racism?” And as an activist I really had to let go of that need to be always on and have perfect thoughts (I was religious once) and to just do all the things I possibly could do. I don’t think it’s sustainable. I think there’s such thing as moderation even for critically important issues - especially for those. I’m reminded of how Zen Master and peace activist Thich Naht Hanh responded when he happened to be in the US during 9/11. His monks said “What should we do?” And he replied, “We should go to the beach.” And that’s what they did. They chilled at the beach for an entire day. And then they moved forward into action from a responsive rather than reactionary place. In grad school I really enjoyed Derrick Bell. One of the things that he said that stuck with me was “the liberation is in the struggle.” The liberation isn’t once you overcome racism once and for all because that’s not going to happen. The liberation is the work itself. And I think that might be what the OP is driving at when they call it a process. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/248 "2026-08-24T20:04:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I do wonder whether a Jesuit upbringing affects the lens through which you see this issue. Is there a similarity between the framework of “We all have racist thoughts and must root them out” and “We all sin and must root out our sin”? Is it possible that there are other, equally likely frameworks that are less informed by Catholic intellectual thought and more informed by other thought traditions? Speaking as someone else with a Jesuit education, I read it as much more of a situation where there’s a sort of moral/social justice awareness that comes with it that gets ingrained in your character, and there’s a constant self-assessment with respect to that kind of thing that you do. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/249 "2026-08-24T20:55:30Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Doper 1: “One of the first things you learn in anti-racism training is that you’re racist. You can’t help it as a product of our society.” I actually think it is a product of nature. The natural order is the individual to the family, to the extended family, to the community, and then to your own species in general. As an example, ants seem identical to us but, if their scent is not the same as the community they try to wander into, the sentence is death. Fighting that natural instinct is a real challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/250 "2026-08-24T21:00:38Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The natural order If we are natural, then our societies are part of the natural order, and our questions about our social conditioning are also part of the natural order. There is nothing moral or immoral about the natural order. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/251 "2026-08-24T21:01:27Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I actually think it is a product of nature. The natural order is the individual to the family, to the extended family, to the community, and then to your own species in general. There’s nothing natural about the sociological classifications of race. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2026, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/252 "2026-08-24T22:36:27Z")
Yeah. We know racism isn’t natural, because it was _invented_ within historical memory. Nobody was or even _could_ be racist before the idea that “races” existed was created. Xenophobia and bigotry in general are natural evils, but racism is a newer one. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2026, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/253 "2026-08-25T02:09:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nobody was or even _could_ be racist before the idea that “races” existed was created. I think it is also true that racism is one form out of many of the kinds of othering that humans have engaged in, and continue to. Not natural, not rational, not necessary, certainly not desirable, these impulses only survive due to ignorance – and the willingness (or eagerness) to stay ignorant in order to feed certain emotional needs. The only path of progress, for any individual, is to be determined to recognize and root out all their own othering, including racism and sexism, for the rest of their lives, and to pass that determination on to anyone around them capable of absorbing it. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2026, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/254 "2026-08-25T02:19:29Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Saying “Black Lives Matter” doesn’t mean other people don’t matter, it means the speaker wants to focus on that topic. We don’t have to help everyone to help a particular group. The question then would be do we care about police brutality, police brutality because of race, police brutality only against blacks, or police brutality only against Fred, because he’s my neighbor? Let’s say police brutality were a systematic everywhere in the nation. In this area, it’s against blacks because they are the predomenent minority. But in that area, it’s against another minority, and in yet another area it’s against yet another minority. Despite police brutality being a universal issue, you are free to make it all about Fred or Blacks or whoever else, but only about Fred or Blacks or whoever else. I’m not saying you can’t. What I am saying, is that you can’t claim that “we are all in this boat together” when you are screaming that it’s not police brutality if it’s not against Fred. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2026, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/255 "2026-08-25T02:24:04Z")
Natural is not synonymous with good. Othering. Tribalism. Us vs Them. They are not good and they are part of our natural tendencies, not just socialized into us. The shapes of what is Us and what is Them, that is socialization. It’s being our natural tendency is exactly why it is so hard to avoid and constrain. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2026, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/256 "2026-08-25T02:34:03Z")
Tokyo Bayer, you are arguing against a straw man. Focusing on the specific, legal, and historical realities of American racism (where my vote actually carries direct democratic responsibility) is not a claim that “it’s not brutality if it happens to someone else.” Suggesting that a person cannot address a specific structural issue in their own country without simultaneously auditing every global atrocity is a recipe for complete paralysis. I am keeping the focus here because this is the system I am civically accountable for fixing. You are profoundly twisting my words. Acknowledging that I am an American voter focusing on an American crisis does not mean I am “screaming that it’s not brutality” elsewhere. Pleonast put it perfectly: focusing on one critical topic does not negate the existence of others. I’m moving back to the thread’s original purpose of personal self-reflection ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2026, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/257 "2026-08-25T05:29:53Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I’m moving back to the thread’s original purpose of personal self-reflection But only for Americans living in America. Have fun!! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2026, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/258 "2026-08-25T05:37:05Z")
Well, the shoe fits. 🤷 ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2026, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/259 "2026-08-25T07:52:38Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Othering. Tribalism. Us vs Them. > > They are not good and they are part of our natural tendencies, not just socialized into us. I’m not sure I buy this entirely, although it seems to be taken for granted, and I have nothing but naïve observation to back up my own view. Infants and toddlers don’t seem to have it, if left to their own devices. Slightly older children start to fracture into groups, but by then they have usually been influenced by adult behavior that they have seen. As the song has it, you have to be taught to hate. Maybe the natural ground is between hating and not hating, comprised of things like caution and lack of experience. I’m not sure these distinctions especially matter – by the time we are adults we have the responsibility to do our best to make ourselves better than we were molded to be by our upbringing and/or early experiences. And so we are back to examining ourselves for faults and pushing against them. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2026, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/260 "2026-08-25T12:25:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s nothing natural about the sociological classifications of race. I agree, but I believe it stems from the, “there’s us and there’s them”, instinctual behavior found throughout nature. I refuse to accept that as some kind of excuse, however, because we are creatures of an intellectually higher order. “Us” should be comprised of the entire human race and not something like our nationality, ethnic culture, or clan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215.md?page=14)