# Confronting racism in oneself **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2026, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215 "2026-05-19T17:58:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/101 "2026-05-20T12:04:56Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > This whole thread has been very thought-provoking, but this I think stands out for me. It seems inherently counterproductive to say “You absolutely must do this thing, also you will miserably fail”. That is not at all what I’m saying. I’ve restated my thesis over and over here, but yous keep twisting it into something different to argue against. Argue about what I’m really saying. One more time: Ongoing process. What if the sanitation department decided that since they picked up your garbage last week, they’re all done and need never come back? If everybody keeps twisting my words out of recognition, how am I supposed to hold any dialogue? Have I failed to explain myself clearly? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/102 "2026-05-20T12:10:55Z")
Shi’i versus Sunni is racism? Please. Get serious. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/103 "2026-05-20T12:19:45Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > One more time: Ongoing process. What if the sanitation department decided that since they picked up your garbage last week, they’re all done and need never come back? That implies a cycle - garbage builds up, once a week you get rid of it, and then it builds up again. Does that mean that people will get more racist all the time unless they throw their racism away? In other words, it’s not about getting less racist (which is impossible, as a house can never be perfectly clean), it’s about preventing yourself from becoming more racist? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/104 "2026-05-20T12:26:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > (which is impossible, as a house can never be perfectly clean) Obviously. Is that a reason to scoff at cleaning? There’s an unconscious pit of filth where racist thoughts fester. Our American patrimony, bequeathed to every one of us by the Founding Enslavers. If one of them scuttles into the basement through cracks in the foundation, I swat it dead. Nobody’s responsible for what’s unconscious, but when one becomes conscious of a wrong, there’s a responsibility to end it. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/105 "2026-05-20T12:28:49Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > There is no acceptable level of racism that a person may nurture in their soul. It _all_ has to be rooted out, What lies at the heart of the OP strikes me as being a manifestation of the largely discredited ‘[zero-defects mentality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-defects_mentality)’. The idea being, an organization (by extension, a society) should focus its energies towards rooting out all imperfection. Racism makes our species imperfect. Zero racist thoughts are acceptable. An individual’s goal must therefore be to identify and suppress this thoughtcrime wherever it exists. Having lived within an organization (military) which at the time was imbued with that philosophy, I have trouble getting behind this approach. There’s gotta be a more practical and realistic way to achieve substantial justice for our society. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/106 "2026-05-20T12:35:05Z")
I think the major work against racism is to dismantle the structural inequity built into the system. Auxiliary to that is a need for progress in hearts and minds, which is the topic here. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/107 "2026-05-20T12:44:57Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > If everybody keeps twisting my words out of recognition, how am I supposed to hold any dialogue? Have I failed to explain myself clearly? Objectively, you have. I’m not certain what you are trying to express. I have a guess, and it’s different from others are guessing. But if half the participants in a thread clearly misunderstand you, and most of the others probably do, too, you have failed to express yourself. I think you started out on a bad foot by using the word copula. I am familiar with copulas. I’ve used copulas: > **[Copula (statistics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copula_(statistics))** > > In probability theory and statistics, a copula is a multivariate cumulative distribution function for which the marginal probability distribution of each variable is uniform on the interval \[0, 1\]. Copulas are used to describe / model the dependence (inter-correlation) between random variables. > Their name, introduced by applied mathematician Abe Sklar in 1959, comes from the Latin for "link" or "tie", similar but only metaphorically related to grammatical copulas in linguistics. Copulas have b (And incidentally, that’s the definition that popped up when i entered “copula” into duckduckgo. Perhaps it knows me, but i didn’t do anything to get that answer.) They obviously have nothing to do with this thread. I am not familiar with the word the way you used it, and i suspect many others weren’t, either. Honestly. I think you poisoned the well and would do better to start over, avoiding linguistic jargon, and thinking about the various misunderstandings on display here and how to address them in the OP. But to address the OP: like @DSeid , i try to be aware of bigoted (not just racist) actions i take. And some of them are habits, not the result of conscious thought. And i try to avoid them. On the rare occasions when i have conscious bigoted thoughts, i am embarrassed. But i don’t flagellate myself. I just try to make sure they don’t turn into actions. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/108 "2026-05-20T13:40:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There needs to be a racism argument equivalent of Godwin’s Law for this little nugget of bullshit that gets trotted out every time as if it countered any argument being made. Its not bullshit, its an unpleasant truth that undermines your philosophy. People are evil. The fantasy that only white westerners were evil and everyone else is varying shades of innocent victim isn’t true. Non-whites have been persecuting each other since before history. Whites have been persecuting each other since before history. White supremacy is a thing that exists, but it is human nature to divide ourselves into tribes and mistreat the other tribes. Racism is a form of tribalism. So are nationalism, ethnic tensions, etc. In Africa tribes would declare war on each other. The fact that everyone was black didn’t matter, just like all the wars between white people didn’t matter. There is no overarching unity among white people (Germany, France and the UK have fought for centuries) and there is no overarching unity among black people. There is no peace between Ukraine and Russia just because both are white. Africans would engage in tribal violence, sell the losers as slaves, then get firearms to engage in even more wars with other Africans. > [@Johanna](#): > > Shi’i versus Sunni is racism? Please. Get serious. Its tribalism. Just like racism is tribalism. Again, your argument that ‘the only form of tribalism that counts and that is unspeakably evil is the one(s) that affect me personally’ is not a persuasive argument. White supremacy is a bad thing. its been built into our culture to divide the working class and justify the oppression of black people. I don’t deny this. But tribalism is built into human psychology and isn’t going away. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/109 "2026-05-20T13:41:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@Tamerlane](#): > > > > Since we are living in a Western society it sorta is the predominant argument for the here and now. > > Most of you are. Myself, when I consider the subject of racism, I don’t think of it in the context of Black Americans. Not to mention that while white on black racism is undoubtedly the most common, widespread, deep rooted, and even problematic form of racism in the United States, it is not the _only_ form of racism in the United States, and it doesn’t make any sense to talk as if it is. This kind of definition game reminds me of when fans of the definition of structural racism insisted that _racism_ meant _prejudice plus power_, therefore _these_ forms of racism were real and bad but these _other_ forms of racism weren’t actually racist at all, because there wasn’t structural power imbalances involved. I think that’s an incredibly stupid way to define it. We already have a term for racism that involves prejudice plus power - it’s called “structural racism”. Why do we need to redefine regular racism so that only structural racism exists? The arguments made in this thread are similar. Why do we need to redefine “racism” to mean “anti black racism practiced by white people as experienced in the aftermath of chattel slavery”? There are lots of other forms of racism (which, indeed, have existed for as long as humans have). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/110 "2026-05-20T13:45:24Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > the wars between white people didn’t matter. There is no overarching unity among white people (Germany, France and the UK have fought for centuries) You can always tell when someone is an American or otherwise knows absolutely nothing about Europe because they’ll go on and on about Western, White, European culture. Anyone who has spent about five minutes talking to Western White Europeans of any sort would know that Europeans certainly don’t view themselves as a unified bloc of Western Whites with common goals and interests. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/111 "2026-05-20T13:50:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Why do we need to redefine “racism” to mean “anti black racism practiced by white people as experienced in the aftermath of chattel slavery”? That’s what cooked the stew America is in, and it’s rapidly getting worse because they’re bringing back Jim Crow, they’ve undone the Voting Rights Act. I’m not addressing, say, Japanese on Korean bigotry, because it’s America that is in a dire crisis and as an American voter it’s my responsibility to care about it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/112 "2026-05-20T13:53:23Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Shi’i versus Sunni is racism? Please. Get serious. You are the one who should get serious, because yes, the Sunni vs Shia divide does often lead to and tie into racism. For example, the Alawites exist as a separate ethno-religious group because of their Shia faith separating them from the rest of the Sunni Syrians since the 9th century. I’d certainly say that the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Alawites by the Syrian regime qualifies as _racist_. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/113 "2026-05-20T14:03:14Z")
It’s equally your (and me) responsibility to care about all the other ethnic-based Otherism in America today. The White supremacists hate light brown Americans of Latin origin about the same as dark brown Americans of African origin. For the same reason: misguided notions of their own superiority. As I didn’t quite say in earlier posts: The problem is _not_ that people think other people are inferior. It’s that they consider themselves superior. If you (any you) harbor notions of superiority, you are part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/114 "2026-05-20T14:03:43Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Anyone who has spent about five minutes talking to Western White Europeans of any sort would know that Europeans certainly don’t view themselves as a unified bloc of Western Whites with common goals and interests. Eh, it might not come up until you’ve been chatting for 30 minutes. But yeah. I went to a square dance event in Germany, and the organizer picked me up at the airport. And as we drove to the event, we took a bumpy road made of concrete slabs. “This is a German road”, he explained to me. The Germans built roads to carry their tanks across Denmark, and those roads are still there today. And every time the car goes bump-bump-bump the Danes resent the German invasions of their country. Okay, maybe it only took 20 minutes for the topic to come up. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/115 "2026-05-20T14:04:11Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > That’s what cooked the stew America is in, and it’s rapidly getting worse because they’re bringing back Jim Crow, they’ve undone the Voting Rights Act. I’m not addressing, say, Japanese on Korean bigotry, because it’s America that is in a dire crisis and as an American voter it’s my responsibility to care about it. I agree with all of that, which is why I described white on black racism as the most pernicious and problematic form of racism in American society (today and also historically - I guess maybe in very early American history anti Native American racism is the only form of racism that really even comes close, since it led to the basically complete destruction of pre Colombian native society). While I agree with everything I quoted above, it did less than nothing to address this question: > [@Babale](#): > > Why do we need to redefine “racism” to mean “anti black racism practiced by white people as experienced in the aftermath of chattel slavery”? > [@](#): > > as an American voter it’s my responsibility to care about it. I agree. The fact that I care about anti black racism doesnt have anything to do with defining it and only it as “racism” and everything else as “prejudice”. I care about my wife and kids more than I care about anyone else in the world (sorry to whoever described that as unacceptable prejudice up thread, actually I guess I’m not sorry about that at all) but I wouldn’t redefine “Human” to mean “my wife and kids” and describe everyone else on the planet as a “Human-like being”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/116 "2026-05-20T14:04:53Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Doper 1: “One of the first things you learn in anti-racism training is that you’re racist. You can’t help it as a product of our society.” > > Doper 2: “This is not true.” (quoted verbatim) > > Deniers like Doper 2 above feel the accusation of racism is a worse evil than the existence of racism itself. That doesn’t follow logically. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/117 "2026-05-20T14:05:34Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > It’s equally your (and me) responsibility to care about all the other ethnic-based Otherism in America today. You can make the case that anti-black racism is the form of racism you should care _the most_ about because it’s the most harmful historically and today, but you can’t make the argument that this makes the other forms of racism _not racism_. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/118 "2026-05-20T14:09:42Z")
Agreed. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/119 "2026-05-20T14:11:52Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Since we are living in a Western society it sorta is the predominant argument for the here and now. Some of us are living in western society but we are not in one of those writers’ lecture halls. Outside of those academic discussions “racism” is understood by most of us to not be so defined. We accept that the treatment of many Japanese Americans during WW2 was racism, that native Americans experience racism, so on. As a member of the cooked American stew I do not view racism as through the same single focus lens that she does, as important of an ingredient of the stew as it is. Anyway a silly aside. Clarification that the OP is by definition speaking only to racism aimed at Black Americans resultant of the chattel system. Her belief that avoiding the “you are racist” phrasing in favor of her phrasing in the OP helps sell the idea is demonstrably clearly a fail. Her focus on extermination of impure racist thoughts that escape our subconscious, in a constant ongoing process never ending waking hour battle to have souls/hearts/minds that are purer of them, I believe is very wrongheaded, a misunderstanding of what drives implicit racism, and an inefficient and inadequate tactic to combat it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215/120 "2026-05-20T14:18:26Z")
Here is Tacitus writing in _Germania_ in 98 CE, so just a tad before Zarura: > [@](#): > > “For my own part, I agree with those who think that the tribes of Germany are free from all taint of intermarriages with foreign nations, and appear as a distinct, unmixed race, stamped with a physical peculiarity of their own. Hence a family likeness pervades the whole, though their numbers are so great. They all have fierce blue eyes, red hair, huge frames, fit only for a sudden exertion. They are not equally capable of hard work and labor, and by no means can they endure thirst and heat, though to cold and hunger they are accustomed by their climate and soil [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-racism-in-oneself/1030215.md?page=7)