# Confronting the ''Culture of the Poor'' Ideology **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578 "2013-04-01T22:34:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/41 "2013-04-02T19:07:23Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > One of the things I’ve fairly recently become aware of is the staggering health gap between the rich and poor, a gap that isn’t explained by poor decisions at all, but by something environmental. There are studies showing that just where you grew up has an enormous impact on your life span and health, regardless of how smart you were about what you did with your life. > > The stress that Manda JO is talking about is huge. Its impact on the health and lifespan of people in poverty is so large that its full extent is unknown. These are my biggest concerns about poverty. If it were just a matter of who has the more expensive car, it wouldn’t be such a big deal. But it’s a matter of who lives and who dies, who is sick and who is well, who gets an education and who doesn’t. From my perspective that is fundamentally unjust. So even if we do acknowledge that some people make poor decisions, it’s a lot more complicated than that. **Lavender** , your brother sounds like my uncle, and I hated him. He wouldn’t work or contribute in any way and he was disrespectful to those who helped him. He fathered two kids with two different women and he was incapable of supporting his children financially. He unfortunately died of a heroine overdose when he was 30 years old. I hated the choices he made, including that last one, but I don’t think he deserved to die. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/42 "2013-04-02T19:31:38Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Wow. Lives rent free and doesn’t pay for food and still doesn’t help out with cleaning or housework and forces Dad to _hire a maid?!_ :dubious: I’d despise him too. Dad says little bro is too busy studying. I know it’s disgusting. The only person I know who did not work when he was going to college was my husband. He was on a full scholarship studying chemical engineering at a prestigious university so he had no time for anything else. > [@msmith537](#): > > But I find the notion of taking money away from people who do everything right and giving it to losers like LavenderBlue’s brother offensive. > > It’s not about “rewards” and “punishments”. Mark Zuckerberg isn’t a billionare because he won the lottery. He’s a billionare because he created a multi-billion dollar company. Your brother wouldn’t starve on the street because he is being punished. It’s because no one should have the right to take the fruits of someone else’s labor and give them to someone who refuses to work. Of course it’s a punishment. I don’t want my brother to freeze, die of heatstroke, starve to death or lack access to medical care so Mark Zuckerberg can get more stuff he does not need. Zuckerberg’s fortune was only possible because we have a society that let him use it. Had he been born in North Korea, would he really have been able to accomplish what he did? That’s the function of a civil society on some level. And believe me I feel so much contempt for my brother I can barely find the words to express it. I would be utterly horrified if my girls turned out anything like him. He’s lazy, arrogant, full of religious zealotry and incredibly delusional about just about everything. Over the years I have tried repeatedly to help him find a job and move out, only to be rebuffed and condescended to at every turn. But I’d still help him if he showed up at my door homeless and hungry. I think at some point we have to just say that some people are dumb, lazy slime and help them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/43 "2013-04-02T19:43:39Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The conservative opposition isn’t really addressing that issue. Their ideology is about low taxes and scapegoats. > > As far as poverty as a result of poor choices, I think few people sink from prosperity into poverty. If you are born poor unless you are an exceptional person you will not readily have the resources to make your way out of poverty. When your family, friends, and community all have become accustomed to the impoverished life, you won’t have the examples to follow to find your way out. > > As far as the poor choices made by those who are already poor, they’re just like the poor choices made by those who are better off. The vast majority of people make dumb choices on a regular basis, you could easily say they would be better off financially if they didn’t spend frivously on new cars, large houses, dining out, and all the other luxuries of life. When you’re poor, only exceptionally good choices will get you out of poverty. I was born poor. My father came to this country from Central America with, literally, the shirt on his back and not much else. I don’t regard myself as having made “exceptionally good” choices. Just correct ones – nothing that requires some huge flash of insight. Avoiding overextending credit or buying things I couldn’t afford, for example, simply because they were “no money down.” Primarily what allowed me to succeed was this simple mantra: _I am not entitled to good stuff just because other people have it._ You sleep without air conditioning because you want to save money. You don’t have a color TV because you want to save money. You mush all the little leftover slivers of soap together into one much-soap-bar because you want to save money. And you watch your neighbors buy color TVs and sleep comfortably at night, because in their minds they’re entitled to it, because other people have it so why shouldn’t they? And they live paycheck to paycheck and never get ahead and lament how unfair it all is. That’s not “extraordinarily good.” That’s baseline obvious. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/44 "2013-04-02T19:44:25Z")
I think it sort of becomes about you rather than the people in question. Yes, some if not most poor people engage in behaviors that are often short-sighted and not ideal. But at the same time it also becomes about you being a decent person and saying even if they are flawed you’re still not going to be the kind of person who lets them freeze or starve. It’s not an easy choice. I actually think about this one a lot as I am afraid that my elderly father will die within the next few years and Idiot Bro will literally show up at my door asking for a room and food. My husband and I have discussed this. I just can’t be the person who turns him away. I feel the same on a national level. Believe me I pay more than my fair share of taxes. Our combined household income is well above average. But I can’t bring myself to care all that much that some schmoe is scamming the system a little here and there. That’s on their conscience not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/45 "2013-04-02T19:50:09Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I don’t want my brother to freeze, die of heatstroke, starve to death or lack access to medical care so Mark Zuckerberg can get more stuff he does not need. Zuckerberg’s fortune was only possible because we have a society that let him use it. Yet your brother was born in the same society, and doesn’t seem to have generated any billion dollar companies. So it appears there is more to it than simply being born in the US vs. in North Korea. > [@](#): > > I think at some point we have to just say that some people are dumb, lazy slime and help them anyway. Well, we don’t have to. And there is something to be said for not enabling. Because there is a certain percentage of the dumb, lazy slime who will work if they have to. They won’t like it, they will complain all they can and try to talk the rest of us into supporting them so they can go back to being dumb and lazy, but a certain percentage - not all - of them will work. I have no idea if your brother would get a job if he knew neither his father nor his sister would support him. If he wouldn’t, then the government letting him live on the dole wouldn’t do any harm, and at least he wouldn’t starve. If he _would_ get a job if his father and sister refused to let him sponge, then the government offering to support him would just mean he would be sponging off strangers instead of his own family. Don’t know if that would be better, or worse. I think much of the irritation that people feel towards long-term poor people is that the things needed to get out of poverty are not all that complex, and they are what most middle-class people do anyway. Which are [ul][li]Graduate from high school. You don’t have to be valedictorian, but you have to graduate.[/li][li]Get married and stay married, especially if you are female. Marriage is the most effective anti-poverty program ever invented.[/li][li]Don’t have children until you can support them without government help.[/li][li]Get a job, any job, stick to it at least a year, and don’t quit it until you have a better job.[/ul]Do all that, and statistically, in five years you will no longer be poor. On average - you want guarantees, go to Best Buy.[/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/46 "2013-04-02T19:57:57Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > My whole point is that just because we’re giving someone an income subsidy I don’t see why it’s anyone’s concern what they do with it… > > The role of government should be to alleviate the situation of the poor, and not try to fix behavior in them that we haven’t fixed in higher income people either. Well, people are probably going to be concerned considering it is their money being given to others. In fact, that’s the issue people have with welfare right now. Many people believe that welfare recepients sit on their ass and use their checks to buy drugs. I agree the government should help to alleviate the situation of the poor. It’s clear to me however, that education is the single best method of accomplishing this task. We need more engineers, doctors, scientists, etc… This is not the same as providing people with jobs. It is providing them with skills and knowledge from an early age. Some people say that we spend unimaginable amounts on our education and are not getting the returns we are expecting. Well, that’s just the way it is. I’m not going to be happy with every decision the government makes, but I still prefer that over the alternative. The alternative meaning handing over vital services like education over to the private sector. It is a trial-and-error process but as long as we are heading in the right direction, which means continually funding proven beneficial programs to society (i.e. education, healthcare, social safety nets), then I will support it. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/47 "2013-04-02T20:02:57Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I think at some point we have to just say that some people are dumb, lazy slime and help them anyway. I agree. It sure beats the hell out of the alternative, which would be people living in the streets, and resorting to violence and robbery to have their basic needs met. It certainly will happen too because people do not just go and die quietly on their own. When push comes to shove, people will do what they need to do in order to survive. So when it comes down to it, not helping the poor in a direct positive way hurts us all. Eventually, they will resort robbery and violence to have their needs met. That means either I get robbed, I have to kill someone to defend myself, or they get caught and end up in jail. In which case, we still have to pay for them. Ignoring the needs of the poor and telling them to figure it out on their own is a lose-lose situation for us all. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/48 "2013-04-02T20:08:50Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not saying get them a job, I’m saying give them a job. Make the jobs, give them a paycheck instead of just a check. Even if they do nothing productive make sure they go to work, develop and demonstrate work skills. If real jobs become available some day at least they will be prepared. Been saying this for decades (well, at least one) We have lots of things that need doing, might as well have the people on he dole out doing them. Who cares if it’s cleaning up trash, beautifying parks or whatever else you can think of that needs doing. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/49 "2013-04-02T20:12:47Z")
Shodan, Zuckerburg was also born with a lot of brains. My little brother was left back in third grade because he has some learning disabilities. Do I think he should work? Hell yes! He’s had a full time job in the past and can certainly hold one now. Lord knows I’ve sent him enough job leads for him to have found something. Do I think he’s had the same opportunities in life as Mark Zuckerburg? No. Let’s not get carried away by pretending that we’re all born equal and it is simply a matter of effort to become a billionaire. I certainly wouldn’t argue with the rest of your points. I intend to do my damndest to make sure my girls graduate from college, marry (if that’s what they want) and not have children (if that’s what they want) until they have a college degree and the right partner. But some of us do have more safety nets than others. I’ve been in a loving relationship with my intelligent and kind husband for over twenty years while my brother has not had anyone similar in his life. Some people are more inclined by nature to impetuous behavior than others. Or they might be born with a handicap. I’m not making excuses for some really stupid behavior but I do sort of agree that Angelo Mozilo and Jenny McCarthy for that matter are far greater threats to our society than my little brother is. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/50 "2013-04-02T20:44:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’d say the best solution is dispersal. Just because we have poor people does not mean we have to have poor neighborhoods. Poor people should not be required, indeed should not be allowed, to live next door to other poor people. Are you proposing that the government determine where we are allowed to purchase a home? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/51 "2013-04-02T20:48:58Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t know if you are referencing the book “Who Moved My Cheese”, but that’s not the point of it. You can do whatever you want with the block of cheese while it’s there. But when it’s gone, you can’t just sit on your ass all day bitching about how there’s no more cheese. You need to figure out how to get more. I am not. I’ve never read it. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/52 "2013-04-02T21:32:43Z")
A big chunk of the middle class conservative perspective on the “culture of poverty” that **olivesmarch4th** alludes to in her original post is due to the fact that middle class society values things like saving for the future, investing in one’s children, education, and all around general prudent behavior and spending. When they see some person on public assistance doing all these things that people in the thread say poor people do, it’s infuriating if they’re intentionally living a downgraded lifestyle in hopes of actually paying all their bills, not being on public assistance, being able to afford health insurance, etc… And, at least for my family, those same middle class behaviors were the ticket out of poverty. It was well indoctrinated that you live within your means, and your primary goal is to enable your children to have more opportunities and a leg up versus what you had. Spendthrifty ways and many of the behaviors described in the thread are particularly abhorrent as a result. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon-caliber intellect to not be poor; it just takes a large dose of delaying gratification and making do with what you have, in expectation that eventually you’ll get a better job, or save enough money to have a cushion of some kind, etc… ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/53 "2013-04-02T21:41:48Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It doesn’t take a brain surgeon-caliber intellect to not be poor; it just takes a large dose of delaying gratification and making do with what you have, in expectation that eventually you’ll get a better job, or save enough money to have a cushion of some kind, etc… It just takes that, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/54 "2013-04-02T22:04:37Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I don’t know about extra-economic influences like family, but as someone who has hovered on the lower-middle class/poor boundary line all my life, I can tell you that it’s very easy to adopt a “poor” mindset, especially about economic choices. The following [Cracked.com](http://Cracked.com) article summed it up very nicely: > > [The 5 Stupidest Habits You Develop Growing Up Poor | Cracked.com](http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-develop-growing-up-poor/) Wow. A couple of those hit home. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/55 "2013-04-02T22:24:18Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > These are my biggest concerns about poverty. If it were just a matter of who has the more expensive car, it wouldn’t be such a big deal. But it’s a matter of who lives and who dies, who is sick and who is well, who gets an education and who doesn’t. From my perspective that is fundamentally unjust. > > So even if we do acknowledge that some people make poor decisions, it’s a lot more complicated than that. Maybe it is my poor perspective talking but sometimes I look at such statistics and think who really WANTS to worry about counting absolute years of life? Don’t get me wrong I care about health very much, but end of life issues become blurry grey areas. Live a very regimented and conservative life with lots of expensive healthcare to squeeze out a last five years with feces leaving your body in a tube. Or live a more free, rough life with no expensive healthcare and drop dead five years earlier, I’d choose the second. I don’t think the first is a more ideal or better situation, its all about what you value and want. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/56 "2013-04-02T22:29:58Z")
I’m going to try to take a step back from some of these arguments… At some level, all of this is just us saying, “Why aren’t those people more like us?” As if what we are doing is inherently the only right thing? When in fact our right thing (handling money well) is simply adapting to our environment more successfully than those people. Would they be better adapted to a different environment? Maybe they are better adapted to their environment and we would be unsuccessful in that environment? Why do we insist that they be more like us? So they can buy things? Like we do? Maybe the answer is that we have such a narrow definition of how one must live (make money - spend wisely) that we have cast out a significant percentage of our fellow humans. Others have pointed out that some people are OK with just making ends meet. Well then, why aren’t we OK with them being OK? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/57 "2013-04-02T22:30:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not saying get them a job, I’m saying give them a job. Make the jobs, give them a paycheck instead of just a check. Even if they do nothing productive make sure they go to work, develop and demonstrate work skills. If real jobs become available some day at least they will be prepared. I’m all for this in one way. Hire 'em to dig holes on Monday and fill in holes on Tuesday. It’s amazing how even stupid pointless work makes people feel useful and raises self esteem in a meaningful productive way. Hell, I know blocks and blocks of neighborhoods that could use a trash detail at least once a week…except (and here’s where the idea begins to falter under the weight of reality) if you hire Joseph to dig holes or clean up trash on the wrong block, Michael is going to shoot his ass for being on the wrong side of the gang line. Then, if we’re phenomenally lucky and someone is willing to testify, Michael goes to jail. And meanwhile Tammy is at home with three kids under the age of 6, one of whom is severely disabled, her mother with Alzheimer’s living in the back room, and no dads in sight to help her pay for appropriate medically supervised adult and child day care so she can work at one of these created jobs. It works in general theory. It falls apart when you start considering the behavior and needs of actual individuals. (The above is based on one of my patient’s families, although names and details have been changed.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/58 "2013-04-02T22:33:13Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Maybe it is my poor perspective talking but sometimes I look at such statistics and think who really WANTS to worry about counting absolute years of life? > > Don’t get me wrong I care about health very much, but end of life issues become blurry grey areas. Live a very regimented and conservative life with lots of expensive healthcare to squeeze out a last five years with feces leaving your body in a tube. Or live a more free, rough life with no expensive healthcare and drop dead five years earlier, I’d choose the second. > > I don’t think the first is a more ideal or better situation, its all about what you value and want. But the people who are dying in these poor neighborhoods aren’t dropping dead suddenly, with no pain and no expense and no fear. They are just hitting those horrific years sooner. Twenty years sooner. Their 50 is some suburbanite’s 70. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/59 "2013-04-02T22:34:34Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > But I’d still help him if he showed up at my door homeless and hungry. I think at some point we have to just say that some people are dumb, lazy slime and help them anyway. I have some empathy for this argument but my concern is that we don’t want to institute policies that _encourage_ this kind of behavior. My worry is that helping out lazy people creates more lazy people in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/60 "2013-04-02T22:42:31Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Others have pointed out that some people are OK with just making ends meet. Well then, why aren’t we OK with them being OK? I am not going to say that anyone who has few choices and a razor thin margin of error and dies early is okay. I do not think the sort of stress that comes with poverty is something most people will choose willingly. I don’t think that the majority of people in better circumstances are in those better circumstances because they are better, different people. I think they are mostly benefiting from better circumstances at their births. Not exclusively. Not completely. But mostly. As I said above, where you are born appears to determine how long you live. It determines if you get asthma and cancer and heart disease at higher rates. To me, that’s not okay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578.md?page=4)