# Confronting the ''Culture of the Poor'' Ideology **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578 "2013-04-01T22:34:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/61 "2013-04-02T22:45:13Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But the people who are dying in these poor neighborhoods aren’t dropping dead suddenly, with no pain and no expense and no fear. They are just hitting those horrific years sooner. Twenty years sooner. Their 50 is some suburbanite’s 70. I did some light research all I can do right now and I found one study from the UK showing 10 years gap between rich and poor, and this remember is a country with universal healthcare. > **[Poor in UK dying 10 years earlier than rich, despite years of government action](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jul/02/poor-in-uk-dying-10-years-earlier-than-rich)** > > Department of Health and NHS criticised for making too little progress on tackling key barometer of inequality Other studies talk about the gap between wealthy first world and poor third world nations, an unfair comparison. I’m open to more. ---
**Author:** ![Edible\_Hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@Edible\_Hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edible_Hat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/62 "2013-04-02T22:49:32Z")
I’d like to play devil’s advocate for a moment. All of these responses already assume that poverty is a quirk in the system, an unfortunate outcome in an imperfect economy. The system is, however, dependent on poverty: the cheapness of our consumer products depend on it. Poverty is part and parcel with our economic system. The system, as it is presently constructed, cannot sustain everyone being wealthy. That’s why the American Dream is a canard: although any one person can indeed become rich, not _everyone_ can, so the Dream is a fleeting fantasy for at least some, if not most, people. You may argue that although our “free enterprise” system may have relative poverty, it ultimately allows for the eradication of absolute poverty. Capitalist competition has led to cheaper gadgets and medicine, for example. This is mostly true, but we still have the problem of relative poverty, which is partly systemic in nature. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/63 "2013-04-02T23:12:25Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I’m open to more. > **[Social Determinants of Health (SDOH)](https://www.cdc.gov/about/priorities/why-is-addressing-sdoh-important.html)** > > Defines social determinants of health and relevance to CDC's work [http://www.insidebayarea.com/life-expectancy](http://www.insidebayarea.com/life-expectancy) > **[UNNATURAL CAUSES | CALIFORNIA NEWSREEL](https://unnaturalcauses.org/)** > > This four-hour documentary series premiered nationally on PBS in Spring 2008, and will be rebroadcast Fridays at 10pm, October 9 through 30. Produced by California Newsreel in association with Vital Pictures, Inc. Presented by the National Minority... I didn’t know what sort of stuff you’d find interesting, so there’s an assortment. ---
**Author:** ![threeorange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@threeorange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threeorange)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/64 "2013-04-02T23:21:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I was born poor. My father came to this country from Central America with, literally, the shirt on his back and not much else. > > I don’t regard myself as having made “exceptionally good” choices. Just correct ones – nothing that requires some huge flash of insight. Avoiding overextending credit or buying things I couldn’t afford, for example, simply because they were “no money down.” Primarily what allowed me to succeed was this simple mantra: _I am not entitled to good stuff just because other people have it._ You sleep without air conditioning because you want to save money. You don’t have a color TV because you want to save money. You mush all the little leftover slivers of soap together into one much-soap-bar because you want to save money. > > And you watch your neighbors buy color TVs and sleep comfortably at night, because in their minds they’re entitled to it, because other people have it so why shouldn’t they? > > And they live paycheck to paycheck and never get ahead and lament how unfair it all is. > > That’s not “extraordinarily good.” That’s baseline obvious. You’re far too modest. The kind of delaying of gratification and self-imposed deprivation you describe in your upbringing requires a constant swimming against a major current of the culture of your father’s chosen nation. The fact that you did so successfully while so many others could not implies that you are, in fact, quite extraordinary. It is sad, however, when the extraordinary have such contempt for the ordinary. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/65 "2013-04-02T23:24:15Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > [Social Determinants of Health (SDOH) | About CDC | CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/socialdeterminants/) > > [http://www.insidebayarea.com/life-expectancy](http://www.insidebayarea.com/life-expectancy) > > [http://www.unnaturalcauses.org/](http://www.unnaturalcauses.org/) > > I didn’t know what sort of stuff you’d find interesting, so there’s an assortment. I checked all three links for hard numbers or claims, the first and third contain none or they are buried within hundreds of pages of text. The largest disparity on the second cite between two zip codes is a 16 year gap between age of death which is startling but I’m unsure how representative of the USA as a whole. I don’t dispute social conditions and poverty can adversely effect healthcare, I was just wondering what the data was. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/66 "2013-04-02T23:24:15Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I have some empathy for this argument but my concern is that we don’t want to institute policies that _encourage_ this kind of behavior. My worry is that helping out lazy people creates more lazy people in the long run. If you don’t want to help, what do you think will be the alternative? Personally, I believe that your fear is irrational. I think it is clear that everyone is inherently curious and have a desire to learn. However, people can only take so much and the stress of life crushes the “spirit” of many people. It is a fundamental problem of education and a sense of security. I think we could make drastic improvements in the social structure, but there’s a catch. Everyone’s got to pay. I.e. - Taxes. People simply don’t want to pay because they got theirs, and honestly life is hard enough as it is. It’s much easier to sit back and tell those “poor people” to figure it out on their own. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/67 "2013-04-02T23:30:44Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I checked all three links for hard numbers or claims, the first and third contain none or they are buried within hundreds of pages of text. The largest disparity on the second cite between two zip codes is a 16 year gap between age of death which is startling but I’m unsure how representative of the USA as a whole. > > I don’t dispute social conditions and poverty can adversely effect healthcare, I was just wondering what the data was. I thought you were interested in why just dropping dead isn’t a fun alternative to a life of deteriorating health. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/68 "2013-04-02T23:50:19Z")
**Edible Hat** , the inevitable result of our capitalistic system is why I favor society doing all that it can to make sure the top strata’s ever-expanding ice cream cone is “licked down” for the benefit of bottom. There’s no excuse for the Top 1% to complain about their tax burden when their income levels have risen practically exponentially, yet more and more people become impoverished. What the hell is that about? Are the wealthy harder working than they were just a decade ago, with everyone else becoming lazier? Who is generating all that extra productivity and why isn’t everyone benefiting from it? Why are people at the bottom–the working-class stiffs who literally sweat on the job–not benefiting as much as the folks at the top? It is embarrassing that SNAP has swollen as much as it has, but I shudder to think what would happen if we didn’t have it. People call welfare spending “socialism”, but it actually deftly enables capitalism by allowing employers to keep labor costs low so they can enrich themselves. Why NOT just pay a cashier minimum wage? If she and her family can’t eat on that, she can use food stamps to cover the difference. The upside is cheap goods for us all. Cheap goods take some of the sting out of the fact that most people’s pay checks haven’t risen much. Food stamps keep the poor alive so they can continue toiling. Ten dollar pizzas delivered free to your door within 30 minutes mollify the others. Without welfare, American-style capitalism would have collapsed permanently back in the 30s. Free market acolytes should get down on their knees and thank God for FDR and Lyndon B. ---
**Author:** ![Edible\_Hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@Edible\_Hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edible_Hat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/69 "2013-04-03T00:10:34Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I have some empathy for this argument but my concern is that we don’t want to institute policies that _encourage_ this kind of behavior. My worry is that helping out lazy people creates more lazy people in the long run. What does laziness have to do with poverty? Wealth is based on providing services and/or products that others want to give you money for, not on your work ethic. While a good work ethic is sometimes an indicator of how much your labor is worth, it is not the sole criterion. If you lack the education, the language skills, and the time that people want to pay for, your work ethic will only get you so far. Does Donald Trump work ten-thousand times harder than a coal miner, as his net worth would suggest? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/70 "2013-04-03T00:20:59Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I thought you were interested in why just dropping dead isn’t a fun alternative to a life of deteriorating health. I know that, and I know a lifetime of subpar healthcare sucks. I’ve seen medical people on this board baffle at a RX they find bizarre, but that in my experience is very common even in the USA if you are poor(if you’re curious it is RXing Ventolin/salbutamol as an asthma controller med to be used X times daily, instead of more expensive newer meds the patient can’t afford). No point in RXing your patient meds they will never be able to afford. I wanted some hard numbers because we’re in GD, just how badly does being poor in the USA effect your health and average age of death? ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/71 "2013-04-03T00:31:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The conservative opposition isn’t really addressing that issue. Their ideology is about low taxes and scapegoats. > > As far as poverty as a result of poor choices, I think few people sink from prosperity into poverty. If you are born poor unless you are an exceptional person you will not readily have the resources to make your way out of poverty. When your family, friends, and community all have become accustomed to the impoverished life, you won’t have the examples to follow to find your way out. > > As far as the poor choices made by those who are already poor, they’re just like the poor choices made by those who are better off. The vast majority of people make dumb choices on a regular basis, you could easily say they would be better off financially if they didn’t spend frivously on new cars, large houses, dining out, and all the other luxuries of life. When you’re poor, only exceptionally good choices will get you out of poverty. agreed. It is a catch 22. I don’t think most people make the excuse that poverty is a result of exclusively poor choices, it’s just as easily the luck of the draw and being born into poverty already gets you 2 1/2 strikes against you. Just as being born rich give you a huge leg up financially. And **TriPolar** makes a great point. Whether born poor or rich people make dumb choices, and the consequences of those dumb choices are exacerbated by poverty. So it isn’t entirely the fault of the poor. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/72 "2013-04-03T00:34:22Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I know that, and I know a lifetime of subpar healthcare sucks. I’ve seen medical people on this board baffle at a RX they find bizarre, but that in my experience is very common even in the USA if you are poor(if you’re curious it is RXing Ventolin/salbutamol as an asthma controller med to be used X times daily, instead of more expensive newer meds the patient can’t afford). No point in RXing your patient meds they will never be able to afford. > > I wanted some hard numbers because we’re in GD, just how badly does being poor in the USA effect your health and average age of death? I’m not talking about health care. Look at the CDC page. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/73 "2013-04-03T00:44:04Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m not talking about health care. Look at the CDC page. Ok. > [@](#): > > The social determinants of health are the circumstances in which people are born, grow up, live, work, and age, as well as the systems put in place to deal with illness. These circumstances are in turn shaped by a wider set of forces: economics, social policies, and politics. > … > > The global context affects how societies prosper through its impact on international relations and domestic norms and policies. These in turn shape the way society, both at national and local level, organizes its affairs, giving rise to forms of social position and hierarchy, whereby populations are organized according to income, education, occupation, gender, race/ethnicity and other factors. Where people are in the social hierarchy affects the conditions in which they grow, learn, live, work and age, their vulnerability to ill health and the consequences of ill health. A whole lot of factors and variables effects the quality of healthcare any one individual receives. One of which is wealth, and like most they are variables any one individual is pretty powerless to effect. Am I right so far? My point was that to some posters in this thread they believe wealth is one variable people have power over(I don’t totally agree) and they are aghast that a poor person would not strive to become wealthy. I was saying many of them are probably cognizant of this fact, but they not pursue wealth not because they are stupid but because they decide they would rather do other things with their life. Whether that is wise or not I can’t decide. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/74 "2013-04-03T00:49:52Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Ok. > > A whole lot of factors and variables effects the quality of healthcare any one individual receives. One of which is wealth, and like most they are variables any one individual is pretty powerless to effect. > > Am I right so far? No. Look at what you are quoting, then see how you keep trying to make it all about healthcare. Healthcare isn’t immaterial, but it’s only mentioned in the first sentence. Why are you interpreting all of this as healthcare? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/75 "2013-04-03T01:08:15Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > No. Look at what you are quoting, then see how you keep trying to make it all about healthcare. Healthcare isn’t immaterial, but it’s only mentioned in the first sentence. Why are you interpreting all of this as healthcare? I’m not, from my very last post: > [@](#): > > A whole lot of factors and variables effects the quality of healthcare any one individual receives. But no one has yet blamed people for being born to uneducated parents, or in a warzone, or black, or in Burma. They did blame people for being poor. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/76 "2013-04-03T01:14:20Z")
Wait, do you want me to say that many and varied circumstances affects the health of every person from conception to death? From genetics, to early childhood nutrition and environmental factors? Most totally beyond their control, obviously. Yes I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/77 "2013-04-03T01:41:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’ve seen little evidence that wealth redistribution works either. I’m fine with taxes going to pay for better infrastructure or shared services like schools or health care. Even social safety nets to help people get back on their feet. But I find the notion of taking money away from people who do everything right and giving it to losers like LavenderBlue’s brother offensive. I think you’re missing the point that merely having money isn’t indicative of “doing everything right”. It can also mean you were born into a wealthy family, or you picked a winning lottery ticket. Likewise, you can do everything right and STILL wind up poor - natural disaster, illness/disability/accident, a profession that looked promising 40 years ago is now obsolete, etc. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/78 "2013-04-03T01:43:28Z")
Poverty is a vicious cycle. It’s easy as an outsider to say “If you only do X, Y, and Z, then you won’t be poor anymore!” but when you come from multi-generational poverty , it affects everything. Your outlook on life, your ability to plan for the future, your ability to create achievable goals. I’ve been mentoring a teenaged girl who is from a poor household right outside DC, and I’m frequently treated to reminders of how different our most basic perceptions are. For instance, her mom is about 5’6 and weighs 200 lbs. Most middle-class folks would call her overweight, especially since she carries all her weight in his mid-section. But the girl thinks her mom is thin and actually remarked that she hopes to be in the same shape when she gets to be her mom’s age. It is clear that obesity is so much the norm in her world, that her concept of what constitutes a healthy weight is off by about 50 lbs. So then you have to wonder: How many of her other perceptions are similarly off? And can you really blame a kid for having skewed perceptions of what’s normal, when in their world, it is normal? I don’t know what the solution is, to be honest. Some redistribution of wealth or job creation has to occur at some level unless we want the poverty cycle to become even harder to break from. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/79 "2013-04-03T09:09:27Z")
We had a recent thread in General Questions with the title: [Factual data: how many “welfare queens” versus “honest poor” ?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=597053) The consensus was that perhaps 2% of the people on welfare will really abuse it. Not much more then the abuse percentage in any other system where intensive control and sanctions are either not possible or not cost-effective. But it is true that for most people, seeing (or reading a juicy outraged article on) entitled S’haniqua makes their blood boil far more then tales of other people abusing other systems. The outrage about Shaniqua is an outlet for the frustration most people feel about their jobs, but they still go there day in day out, while Shaniqua doesn’t. That just hits close to home. In fact, that is one useful way to use the Shaniquas of this world. If reading about her really, really makes your blood boil, chances are you are very unhappy in you job, close to a burn out, and need to take some time off to find another job. And if reading that makes you foam at the mouth and say “I wish I could, but I can’t!” then you really need to take a long hard look at your priorities. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578/80 "2013-04-03T09:46:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’ve seen little evidence that wealth redistribution works either. I’m fine with taxes going to pay for better infrastructure or shared services like schools or health care. Even social safety nets to help people get back on their feet. But I find the notion of taking money away from people who do everything right and giving it to losers like LavenderBlue’s brother offensive. How are we defining works? I don’t expect it’ll be a great success at breaking the cycle of poverty, but I think it will alleviate the _ills of poverty_ which should really be our goal in any case. Our system guarantees winners and losers, needs winners and losers. The winners receive outsize rewards, I think there is room for allowing all the innovation of positives of that system where you take some of the winnings from the winners and give it back to the house to redistribute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confronting-the-culture-of-the-poor-ideology/654578.md?page=5)