# Confused about the Mueller indictments **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962 "2018-02-16T22:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/1 "2018-02-16T22:21:58Z")
Reading the CNN reporting, it sounds like a bunch of stuff that isn’t even a crime. Setting up fake social media accounts? Buying ads under false identities? Given that the Russians will never stand trial, is this less about legalities and more about publicity? If so, it works just fine, no one can support what the Russians did. But I get queasy when law enforcement sets out to find things to charge you with rather than just dispassionately investigating whether you actually broke any laws. So are these charges legit? Can you actually be charged for election advocacy under a fake social media account? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/2 "2018-02-16T22:28:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Reading the CNN reporting You can read the actual indictment here: [https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download](https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download) ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/3 "2018-02-16T22:37:37Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > You can read the actual indictment here: > > [https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download](https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download) Copy and paste isn’t working from that, but the first paragraphs sums it up pretty nicely. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/4 "2018-02-16T22:41:03Z")
That sounds weak, especially in the age of the internet. So except for the identity theft, this would all be legal if Matt Drudge had done it? That’s not constitutionally sound. 1st amendment applies to all speech in the US, it’s not a citizens only right. Has any foreigner ever been successfully prosecuted for doing electioneering that would be legal for an American? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/5 "2018-02-16T22:41:19Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Copy and paste isn’t working from that, but the first paragraphs sums it up pretty nicely. Here it is, formatting cleaned up a bit: > [@](#): > > The United States of America, through its departments and agencies, regulates the activities of foreign individuals and entities in and affecting the United States in order to prevent, disclose, and counteract improper foreign influence on U.S. elections and on the U.S. political system. U.S. law bans foreign nationals from making certain expenditures or financial disbursements for the purpose of influencing federal elections. U.S. law also bars agents of any foreign entity from engaging in political activities within the United States without first registering with the Attorney > General. And U.S. law requires certain foreign nationals seeking entry to the United States to obtain a visa by providing truthful and accurate information to the government. Various federal agencies, including the Federal Election Commission, the U.S. Department of Justice, and the U.S. Department of State, are charged with enforcing these laws. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/6 "2018-02-16T23:00:56Z")
from the opening lines of the document: > [@](#): > > U.S. law bans foreign nationals from making certain expenditures for the purpose of influencing federal elections. U.S. law also bars agents of any foreign entity from engaging in political activities within the United States without first registering with the Attorney General. But yeah, I agree with the OP. This is pretty minor stuff, and mostly technical violations. The law says that using Facebook is fine, as long as you are a registered alien, or a US citizen. If these 12 Russians had created a PAC fund or whatever, and hired a few Americans to do the trolling, then it all would have been legal. To me, this whole issue is being overblown by the NY Times the way that Hillary’s emails were overblown by Foxnews. The real problem isn’t Russian “meddling”–the real problem is the stupidity of the public. By constantly claiming that somehow the Russians corrupted the election results by posting on Facebook, what you are really saying is that people who read Facebook can’t be trusted to vote responsibly. To be blunt-- you are admitting that democracy is a bad idea. And that’s more dangerous to the future of American society than any Russian meddling. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/7 "2018-02-16T23:16:25Z")
“The defendants allegedly conducted what they called information warfare against the United States, with the stated goal of spreading distrust towards the candidates and the political system in general. The Russians also recruited and paid real Americans to engage in political activities from both political campaigns and staged political rallies. The defendants and their co-conspirators pretended to be grassroots activists. According to the indictment the Americans did not know they were communicating with Russians.” - [Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein](http://miami.cbslocal.com/2018/02/16/florida-connection-indictments-russians-election-meddling/) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/8 "2018-02-17T00:20:45Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > . . . --the real problem is the stupidity of the public. . . . you are admitting that democracy is a bad idea. And that’s more dangerous to the future of American society than any Russian meddling. Why assume that the two are mutually exclusive? The public IS stupid, but democracy is still good. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/9 "2018-02-17T00:53:47Z")
The CIA and Russian agencies have been influencing elections for decades. What’s different this time is that _it was the U.S.A._ — the unique global superpower — whose election was subverted. > [@chappachula](#): > > … To me, this whole issue is being overblown by the NY Times the way that Hillary’s emails were overblown by Foxnews. > > The real problem isn’t Russian “meddling”–the real problem is the stupidity of the public. > By constantly claiming that somehow the Russians corrupted the election results by posting on Facebook, what you are really saying is that people who read Facebook can’t be trusted to vote responsibly. … The election was so close that it can be confidently stated that Russian meddling, even if “legal” or “only technically illegal,” _was decisive._ Anyway, there was far more to the Russian meddling than just posting on Facebook. \*\*\*Were it not for the Russian meddling, Clinton would now be President. \*\*\* And a Clinton Administration would obviously have been very different from a Trump Administration. The U.S.A., and indeed the entire world, have been set on a different course. To say “this whole issue is being overblown” is to bury one’s head in the sand. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/10 "2018-02-17T02:09:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The election was so close that it can be confidently stated that Russian meddling, even if “legal” or “only technically illegal,” _was decisive._ Anyway, there was far more to the Russian meddling than just posting on Facebook. \*\*\*Were it not for the Russian meddling, Clinton would now be President. \*\*\* > > And a Clinton Administration would obviously have been very different from a Trump Administration. The U.S.A., and indeed the entire world, have been set on a different course. To say “this whole issue is being overblown” is to bury one’s head in the sand. By that logic, everything that happened in 2016 was decisive. Each and every election event. Thing is, elections are decided by votes, not likes, and to my knowledge, no Russians voted. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/11 "2018-02-17T11:32:38Z")
Boy am I glad I turned down all prospective political clients during the last election cycle. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/12 "2018-02-17T12:50:33Z")
Here is what I posted in the BBQ Pit thread on the Mueller investigation - I will repost here because this is what I have been trying to noodle through. > [@me](#): > > The thing that struck me was “these indictments mean that Trump can’t fire Mueller.” > > With this level of documented evidence and formal accusation of another country acting against the US, Trump taking action against Mueller, the person overseeing that work, could not be looked at as anything other than obstruction and treason given all of Trump’s actions and statements to date. I am not trying to be cute or hyperbolic - I believe I am speaking to extremely likely consequences. > > With this additional leverage, Mueller can continue moving in his methodical way. Folks are discussing how slow he is moving - I disagree; I assume he is planning his timing. > > In terms of timing: when will Mueller start dropping the bigger bombshells? I would argue that he will target right before or immediately after the midterm elections. Going afterwards makes a lot of sense - see how many seats the Dems take over and how likely it might be that any politically-driven impeachment process might be supported in Congress. My $.02 for now. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/13 "2018-02-17T12:54:23Z")
Does this mean that the USA can indict every foreign national who writes something disparaging about a candidate for office? So long as they spent money to connect to the internet and their posting might influence an American? As a US citizen residing abroad does a discussion of US politics with my Jamaican colleagues turn into a crime if they buy the next round of drinks at the bar? Seems to me these indictments are weak sauce. IMHO the identity theft charges are the only part that rises to the point of concern, though in other circumstances such a crime is routinely ignored. When I read they are actually charging someone for lying about their identity when purchasing an online advertisement I actually laughed. How does the defendant plead to Lying to Paypal in the first degree? ---
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/14 "2018-02-17T15:13:40Z")
If someone breaks into your home - and doesn’t steal anything - it is still a crime. If someone steals your identity and only uses it to subscribe to a magazine, that’s still a crime. You might argue that they are crimes of such insignificance that they don’t warrant national attention. But, charging these crimes does a great deal more. It might provide political cover. It might serve as a vehicle to release information in a coherent way. It might prompt other players to talk on phones that are currently tapped. In his other indictments, Mueller has only charged at a very low level. It’s just enough to position the players on the board. More charges can always be brought later. He’s leading with strength and understatement. He’s telling everyone still out there to be afraid, to make deals while there is still time, that the end really is approaching. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/15 "2018-02-17T15:31:01Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Does this mean that the USA can indict every foreign national who writes something disparaging about a candidate for office? So long as they spent money to connect to the internet and their posting might influence an American? As a US citizen residing abroad does a discussion of US politics with my Jamaican colleagues turn into a crime if they buy the next round of drinks at the bar? > > Seems to me these indictments are weak sauce. IMHO the identity theft charges are the only part that rises to the point of concern, though in other circumstances such a crime is routinely ignored. When I read they are actually charging someone for lying about their identity when purchasing an online advertisement I actually laughed. How does the defendant plead to Lying to Paypal in the first degree? Pretty much my thoughts, too. Indicting a bunch of Russians gets headlines, and maybe we have to do it just to send a signal, but it’s not actionable. Welcome to the internet age, folks. The only shocking thing is that this hasn’t been going on for much longer (or perhaps it has, and it was more under the radar). ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/16 "2018-02-17T15:56:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Reading the CNN reporting, it sounds like a bunch of stuff that isn’t even a crime. Setting up fake social media accounts? Buying ads under false identities? Given that the Russians will never stand trial, is this less about legalities and more about publicity? If so, it works just fine, no one can support what the Russians did. But I get queasy when law enforcement sets out to find things to charge you with rather than just dispassionately investigating whether you actually broke any laws. > > So are these charges legit? Can you actually be charged for election advocacy under a fake social media account? My assumption, and it could be wrong, is that this indictment is more to protect Mueller and Rosenstein by showing that there is definite proof that the Russians were involved in our elections. Now it’ll be harder to fire Mueller without opening Trump up to new obstruction charges. I agree, the Russians stealing identities and posting fake social media profiles doesn’t sound that important in the grand scheme of things (still illegal, but I wouldn’t compare it in importance to say the Russians hacking into voter registration lists). But I’m assuming/hoping that this is more to keep the investigation going while they investigate open collusion, money laundering, blackmail, etc. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/17 "2018-02-17T15:57:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Pretty much my thoughts, too. Indicting a bunch of Russians gets headlines, and maybe we have to do it just to send a signal, but it’s not actionable. Welcome to the internet age, folks. The only shocking thing is that this hasn’t been going on for much longer (or perhaps it has, and it was more under the radar). It is not actionable, no. But what if Trump took action against Mueller at this point? This doesn’t raise the stakes if Trump takes big action? Also, you don’t think this is another brick in Mueller’s foundation? I do NOT believe Muelller wants to drop his biggest bombshells until at or right after the midterms. This indictment is a relatively minor action that is in service to that longer term objective. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/18 "2018-02-17T17:01:13Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Does this mean that the USA can indict every foreign national who writes something disparaging about a candidate for office? Of course not. Talking about campaigns and candidates, even if expressing an opinion, isn’t campaigning. That foreign national can’t do anything you couldn’t do without counting it as a contribution-in-kind. If he mouths off at the bar or writes a scathing letter to the editor, paying for his own stamp, fine. If he puts up a ‘Hillary for President of America’ website, problematic. If he links to a few random, election-related articles on Facebook, fine. If he launches a coordinated effort to misinform Americans through a barrage of fake news and links on Facebook, problematic. Just because there’s no bright line doesn’t mean there’s no difference. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/19 "2018-02-17T17:04:18Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > It is not actionable, no. But what if Trump took action against Mueller at this point? This doesn’t raise the stakes if Trump takes big action? I never thought Trump was going to fire Mueller, so I don’t think it raises the stakes. That is not to say that I don’t think Trump wants to fire Mueller or thought/thinks about firing Mueller, but I don’t think he would go through with it. And at this point, as Mueller said in his _SNL Weekend Update interview_– it’s a little late for that. > [@](#): > > Also, you don’t think this is another brick in Mueller’s foundation? I do NOT believe Muelller wants to drop his biggest bombshells until at or right after the midterms. This indictment is a relatively minor action that is in service to that longer term objective. I don’t think it’s particularly noteworthy. We all knew something like that was going on, or those who think it’s all fake news will think this is fake news, too. I’m OK with letting Mueller proceed at his own pace and let the bombs fall where they will. I can imagine a whole range of such bombs, and I’m as certain as I can be that some folks are going down. Some very close to Trump. I won’t be surprised if Trump gets toppled, too, but I’m not planning on it or expecting it. Too many unknowns. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962/20 "2018-02-17T17:18:03Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > It is not actionable, no. But what if Trump took action against Mueller at this point? This doesn’t raise the stakes if Trump takes big action? > > Also, you don’t think this is another brick in Mueller’s foundation? I do NOT believe Muelller wants to drop his biggest bombshells until at or right after the midterms. This indictment is a relatively minor action that is in service to that longer term objective. What do you think his “longer term objective” is? You seem to think that he’s very politically motivated. I tend to think, based on his reputation and party affiliation, he’s much more likely to be motivated by a desire to get to the actual truth, and to prevent it from being covered up. He probably also wants people who committed crimes to be identified and prosecuted. But I don’t think there is any reason to think that the electoral calendar is what it motivating him. He’s a Republican. If this were about spinning the political impact, he’d be trying to find a way to allow the party to distance themselves and recover. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-mueller-indictments/808962.md?page=2)