# Confused about the status of Detroit **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 22, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405 "2013-09-22T01:44:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/41 "2013-09-26T16:56:22Z")
Also, Ralph seems to be under the impression that any abandoned factories in Detroit are available for the city to do with as it wishes. I doubt that this is the case. I suspect that they are still private property. And how many of the abandoned factories were actually in Detroit itself? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/42 "2013-09-26T17:04:06Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Bankruptcy ought to be a great opportunity,for Detroit to reinvent itself-start over, with a clean slate. If I were Dave Bing, I’d invite in Chinese and Korean automakers-give them the abandoned factories for $1.00. The whole city could become an enterprise zone. > But this will never happen. Because the city doesnt own them? And what Chinese automakers? Why not the Germans and the Japanese companies? Or even American??? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/43 "2013-09-26T17:09:48Z")
You give them to the Chinese because the Chinese are our enemies. A WWII-era auto plant is worse than worthless. It can’t be converted to a modern robot-run plant. You couldn’t even gut it. You’d have to raze it and then spend a zillion dollars on remediation for the toxic chemicals that are everywhere. It’s not just a bad idea, it’s a declaration of war. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/44 "2013-09-26T17:10:53Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > To add to this, city employees that pay into the city pension fund do not pay into social security, and will not collect social security. The pension is all they have. However, the Michigan state constitution specifically prohibits reducing pension benefits. However however, the bankruptcy was filed in Federal court, so it’s unknown how this will turn out. I’m not sure the part about social security is true. Not all government pension plans are structured so participants don’t pay social security tax. For example I paid social security taxes in the military and currently receive military retirement pay, and will still be eligible for social security benefits once I am old enough. I worked for a few years for the Commonwealth of Virginia, and while I cashed out the pension contributions when I left, I had paid social security taxes the whole time I worked there. It’s very common from what I can see for police and firefighters to not pay social security tax, and I know the railroads have their own retirement, and many universities still operate totally separate from social security, but I couldn’t find anything confirming that for Detroit. Maybe someone has more information? The best I could find on the Detroit Retirement System website, for the General Retirement System (separate from the Police & Firefighter System) is the plan offers an option where they will coordinate your benefits with your SSA benefits. Meaning, if you retire prior to eligibility for Social Security, you’ll initially receive a larger pension benefit from your Detroit pension, and then when you become eligible for SSA your Detroit pension will go down a bit. That at least shows the system considers it fairly normal for a retiree to be receiving Detroit pension benefits and SSA benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/45 "2013-09-26T18:47:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > You give them to the Chinese because the Chinese are our enemies. > > A WWII-era auto plant is worse than worthless. It can’t be converted to a modern robot-run plant. You couldn’t even gut it. You’d have to raze it and then spend a zillion dollars on remediation for the toxic chemicals that are everywhere. It’s not just a bad idea, it’s a declaration of war. Heh. You’ve just described the old Packard Plant. It’s a huge, crumbling ruin that’s full of asbestos and other nasty crap. Estimates on the cost to tear it down & clean up the site range into the billions of dollars. You couldn’t give it away if you taped the deed to the wall and wrote “free” on it. The city recently seized the plant for back taxes and will try to auction it off. I suppose it’s possible someone will buy it, but it’s probably more likely that a meteor will fall from the sky and obliterate it first. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/46 "2013-09-26T19:20:27Z")
I should say, Detroit is doing a good job trying to clear out the ruins. They just started tearing down an old housing project along I-75. They caught some flak for it because The Supremes used to live there, but these days it’s a graffitti-covered eyesore, and I don’t think too many people will miss it. Next up on the major projects list should probably be the old Michigan Central railroad terminal. It’s a beautiful building, but it’s been abandoned since forever, and looks it. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/47 "2013-09-26T22:53:56Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m not sure the part about social security is true. Not all government pension plans are structured so participants don’t pay social security tax. For example I paid social security taxes in the military and currently receive military retirement pay, and will still be eligible for social security benefits once I am old enough. From [here](http://blogs.marketwatch.com/encore/2013/07/26/detroit-retirees-ask-obama-for-pension-help/): > [@](#): > > City pension officials say that the average municipal pensioner receives about $19,000 a year, and that firefighters and police officers – who don’t qualify for Social Security – collect about $30,000 annually. and from [here](http://blogs.lawyers.com/2013/07/detroit-bankruptcy-robs-pension-benefits/): > [@](#): > > For perspective, the average public pension beneficiary in Detroit gets about $19,000 per year, and most aren’t eligible for Social Security. I think the “most” qualifier in that second quote are for people who worked some years for other employers, paying into SS those years. Not that some city employees who pay into the city pension also paid into SS. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/48 "2013-09-27T12:48:44Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > From [here](http://blogs.marketwatch.com/encore/2013/07/26/detroit-retirees-ask-obama-for-pension-help/): That’s not clarifying much for me, I already knew (and stated) firefighters and police officers almost always do not pay into social security–but we also know they are part of a separate retirement system. They are not part of the Detroit GRS. > [@](#): > > and from [here](http://blogs.lawyers.com/2013/07/detroit-bankruptcy-robs-pension-benefits/): > I think the “most” qualifier in that second quote are for people who worked some years for other employers, paying into SS those years. Not that some city employees who pay into the city pension also paid into SS. That could be the case based on the article. But I’m still not seeing it spelled out clearly. I found it strange how hard it was to get an answer to this. I went to some Commonwealth of Virginia pages yesterday, basically trying to find information on benefits and Social Security etc. You do not have to look very hard to find a clear explanation of what you pay into the pension and it specifically mentions you also pay Social Security tax. I was expected the City of Detroit would, somewhere, have a similar explanation so potential or current employees would know what to expect benefit and withholding wise. But instead the GRS website looks like something from the mid-90s and is almost devoid of helpful information on the topic. I’ve yet to find anything in clear writing from a government source explaining the employee contribution to the GRS and whether or not persons making such contributions are exempt from Social Security. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/49 "2013-09-27T13:59:22Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > … I was expected the City of Detroit would, somewhere, have a similar explanation so potential or current employees would know what to expect benefit and withholding wise. But instead the GRS website looks like something from the mid-90s and is almost devoid of helpful information on the topic. … Hmmm… Can’t afford basic infrastructure. What are the odds that HR web updates were a priority or replacing the web guy who quit was a priority? What are the odds the HR people are also tech gurus, rather than possibly poorly qualified “friends of the councilor”? Basically, you’re saying their web site is as well maintained as the rest of the city. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/50 "2013-09-27T15:21:21Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > See, this is exactly why this needs to go into GD. > > Detroit’s problems are structurally the same as Cleveland’s problems. And Buffalo’s. Rochester, Syracuse, Schenectady, Toledo, Akron, Gary, Bridgeport, Scranton. Philadelphia, Baltimore, Pittsburgh. The entire Rust Belt has seen their center cities collapse. Why? Their heavy industries and/or major employer went out of business or moved operations elsewhere. White flight took the middle class to the suburbs. It’s more than just employers closing or moving; the industries changed. To use Pittsburgh as an example, the United States Steel Corporation produces the same amount of steel today as it did in 1910; however, technology has changed such that it employees 40,000 people today rather than 400,000 people in the early 20th century. The auto industry, and indeed manufactures all over the country are in the same position. While the domestically-owned auto industry faced numerous bankruptcies, manufactures in the country today as a whole have never been more productive. They are achieving record productivity with smaller labor footprints. Thus, Detroit is a victim of changing economies. Service jobs created to fill the void left by the auto industry simply never existed in Detroit. People left to pursue these jobs, leaving a small fraction of the city’s original population behind to pay the bills and debts of city twice it’s current size. It is a fundamentally unfair situation to the current residents, and bankruptcy to reduce the burden left by those who fled is an appropriate avenue for the current resident’s to explore. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/51 "2013-09-27T16:39:26Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Well, logically your pension is money you already earned, they just haven’t gotten around to paying you yet. Reducing your pension is no different than saying “we’ve paid you $500,000 over the last 10 years, would you mind giving us $100,000 back?” Not quite. If someone has already paid your for a debt owed, then the person is no longer a creditor. If someone owes you in the future for services already renders, then the person, in this case the city, is a creditor. But they are in bankruptcy now and can dissolve or restructure these debts. Owing a person a pension is no different than owing the bank your car payment. ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Tonya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/4491bb/32.png) [@Queen\_Tonya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Tonya)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/52 "2013-10-05T05:10:55Z")
The Detroit News had an interesting feature called [Six Decades](http://www.detroitnews.com/article/99999999/METRO01/131003003&template=theme&theme=SIX-DECADES) about the last sixty years. Good read if anyone is still interested. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405/53 "2014-01-06T19:32:24Z")
Emergency Manager Kevyn Orr has frozen Detroit’s pension benefits for about 5,600 non-uniform employees, closing the General Retirement System to all new employees effective Dec. 31,and creating a new 401(k)-style defined contribution retirement plan for existing and future city workers starting Jan. The pension “escalator,” has been been eliminated effectively eliminating any future cost-of-living increases for all retired city employees in the General Retirement System. [http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140106/METRO01/301060062#ixzz2pdMgxKQF](http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140106/METRO01/301060062#ixzz2pdMgxKQF) Besides lawsuits I would also expect this to result in strikes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/confused-about-the-status-of-detroit/669405.md?page=2)