# Congratulate me -- I Just Won the Lottery (A Tax Policy Debate) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758 "2012-01-26T18:34:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/61 "2012-01-26T23:17:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Wealth taxes would be impractical. I tend to agree, but it’s not exactly unheard of. [France](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_tax_on_wealth)(as has been mentioned), [Switzerland](http://live-in-switzerland.com/e/faq/personal-taxes.html), [Netherlands](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Netherlands#Wealth_tax), and [India](http://www.tax4india.com/wealth-tax-india/wealth-tax-india.html)all have wealth taxes on people over a certain threshold of wealth. They seem to be in the 1-2% range at the high end. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/62 "2012-01-26T23:27:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > He’d only sway elections if he spends some of the money, not just waves it around. Think of the proverbial bag lady with a million bucks. How much power does she have.If No politician is going to listen to Bricker unless he spends some up front. > Which makes me wonder - what is the sales tax on politicians anyway? Two things: **Kobal2** ’s point was that a rich guy will be listened to simply by virtue of being rich. Doesn’t require spending anything. Secondly, if all he does is donate to a particular candidate, I don’t believe he’d pay any taxes on the transaction. It’s then entirely possible he could have his property taxes lowered as a result, offsetting the money he spent on the campaign. Keep in mind that for the scenario in the OP, **Bricker** doesn’t plan to earn any more income (quitting his job) so for the next 40 years he’s going to be bleeding away his savings. If as an example he spends $50 a week paying a toll on a highway, that’s $24,000. Now that I think of of it, he has a pretty strong incentive to support any politician that would reduce the capital gains tax rate to 0%. Or any such offer that would allow him to earn untaxed income. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/63 "2012-01-26T23:40:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Which makes me wonder - what is the sales tax on politicians anyway? I believe the standard is the same as tipping - when you order a politician you traditionally give the Government that brings him to you 5-10%, but of course some skinflints will object to even that… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/64 "2012-01-26T23:48:06Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Since this is GD, does anybody actually want to take the Devil’s Advocate position that some kind of “wealth” tax needs to be imposed? Or that there is a moral imperative that such assets be taxed? > > Not that I’m volunteering, mind. We _have_ a wealth tax. As noted about, that’s what our estate taxes do-- determine a person’s wealth, and take a percentage of it as tax. Because wealth is accumulated over a lifetime and notoriously hard to measure, it makes sense to only worry about how to calculate it once in a lifetime, and to do so at death, so that no living person loses the house that they’re living in to a wealth tax. (Leaving aside, I suppose, the idea that an adult son or daughter of the deceased might still be living there, but since the estate currently needs to so valuable to qualify for current estate taxes, I can’t get too worked up about it.) It might be wise to exempt one family home or farm from estate tax calculations, to avoid taking the family home away from a family, or to raise the rates at which estates are taxed to increase revenue and minimize the formation of wealth-based inherited aristocracy, but the simple matter is that a) we already have a wealth tax and b) I believe we should continue to have one in very much the same fashion that we do now. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/65 "2012-01-26T23:49:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > He’d only sway elections if he spends some of the money, not just waves it around. Think of the proverbial bag lady with a million bucks. How much power does she have.If No politician is going to listen to Bricker unless he spends some up front. Well, people listened (for a while, at least) to… what’s his name, guy has an autonomous toupee… Donald Trump ! That’s the one. Donald Trump came out and spoke, and spoke staggering amounts of truly retarded shit. Yet people took him seriously, and put him on TV. All because he has lotsa money. Hell, he doesn’t even _really_ have lotsa money, he’s just good at putting on the front that he’s a wildly successfull businessman. Which he really, really isn’t. I don’t believe he spent a cent on any of this, in fact he probably made off like a bandit in speaker fees. Ask yourself: what are the chances of Joe the \*\*Bricker \*\*achieving same without the lure of not-entirely-ill-gotten gains ? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/66 "2012-01-26T23:56:27Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Oh, come on **Bricker**! > > You know what capital gains taxes are, you know what income taxes, windfall gains are. > > In the example you pose, you have paid the income taxes for the year in which you made the income. Next year’s taxes, providing that your money doesn’t accidentally make more money should be zero. > > Except that according to the lastest State of the Union message, we should be striving for a more ‘fair’ society. Fair means I get part of your money without doing anything, because you didn’t do anything to get the money. So it is all ‘ours’. > > We/they will find another way to take your money. Perhaps a bulk cash fee. Or a cash holding fee where you are penalized for just keeping the money instead of investing it. A failure to re-invest fee. > > You aren’t playing the game by putting your money back in the community pile, so we take some anyway. > > My imaginary money is on changing the currency until the money you are holding has no value and cannot be redeemed. That is still a sort of taxation or confiscation but it looks a little prettier. As long as you’re talking about imaginary nonsensical scary taxes, why not tell us there is going to be a socialist Kenyan antichrist tax? I can see that the latest State of the Union address frightened you, but try not to make everything more scary than it actually is. You’ll keep yourself up at night. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/67 "2012-01-27T00:08:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, people listened (for a while, at least) to… what’s his name, guy has an autonomous toupee… Donald Trump ! That’s the one. Donald Trump came out and spoke, and spoke staggering amounts of truly retarded shit. Yet people took him seriously, and put him on TV. All because he has lotsa money. Hell, he doesn’t even _really_ have lotsa money, he’s just good at putting on the front that he’s a wildly successfull businessman. Which he really, really isn’t. > > I don’t believe he spent a cent on any of this, in fact he probably made off like a bandit in speaker fees. Ask yourself: what are the chances of Joe the \*\*Bricker \*\*achieving same without the lure of not-entirely-ill-gotten gains ? Trump leveraged his existing fame, from books and plastering his name on buildings, hotels, casinos, clouds, and urinals. If Bricker became famous for being the man who put his winnings in the closet, I can see him maybe having influence. Especially if he gets a TV show. After all, as an economic policy it is not much stupider than what is being mentioned in Republican debates. Fame counts as an asset also. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/68 "2012-01-27T00:31:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Trump leveraged his existing fame, from books and plastering his name on buildings, hotels, casinos, clouds, and urinals. If Bricker became famous for being the man who put his winnings in the closet, I can see him maybe having influence. Especially if he gets a TV show. After all, as an economic policy it is not much stupider than what is being mentioned in Republican debates. All right, I’ll sport you a Donald Trump, but what about "son of"s for example ? Even if \*\*Bricker \*\*is adamant about keeping his mouldering 80M in a sock drawer, **Bricker Jr.** is sure to be constantly surrounded by fawning sycophants, all tripping over themselves to do him favours, helping him out, laugh at his lame jokes, inviting him to their parties – \*investing \*in him. Waiting for \*\*Bricker \*_to keel over. And aren’t we all ?_ $80M sitting in your bank account is like a gravity well. It’s a lead weight on the rubber sheet of society. In turn, social enterprises can be set up and flourish on that. Hell, that’s half of a celebrity gossip rag’s income source: pictures of people whose parents have more money then the human mind can conceive. And it of course turns into a feedback loop since the more famous you get, the more your picture’s in the paper, the more famous you get. > [@](#): > > Fame counts as an asset also. Ain’t no tax on that though. There probably should be. If only to make the Kardashians and the Osbournes vanish from the public eye. - I don’t actually mean that. The opportunity was just too good to pass up. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/69 "2012-01-27T00:38:06Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Two things: **Kobal2** ’s point was that a rich guy will be listened to simply by virtue of being rich. Doesn’t require spending anything. > > Secondly, if all he does is donate to a particular candidate, I don’t believe he’d pay any taxes on the transaction. It’s then entirely possible he could have his property taxes lowered as a result, offsetting the money he spent on the campaign. Now spending by donating to a candidate (or setting up a Super PAC) would definitely give him clout. And you are right, untaxed clout is possible. But not without spending. Hell, we even read about how Google didn’t have any clout until they hired lobbyists, despite their fame and money. > [@](#): > > Now that I think of of it, he has a pretty strong incentive to support any politician that would reduce the capital gains tax rate to 0%. Or any such offer that would allow him to earn untaxed income. Not if he planned to keep the money in his mattress. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/70 "2012-01-27T00:41:06Z")
Sorry, haven’t read all of the responses, so this has probably already been covered: > [@](#): > > Now, I intend to take my money in cash, and stack it in my bedroom closet. And I’m quitting my job. Well, presuming your bedroom is in your house, you will probably be paying property taxes and the like. Also, if you plan to buy anything other than some food items, you’ll be paying taxes on those things. Luxury items especially will be taxed. Since you won’t have an income, presumably (having quit your job), you won’t have to pay income tax or social security taxes. I THINK you’ll still be obligated to pay some state and local taxes, though those will mostly be the already mentioned property taxes or luxury taxes (depending on where you live…if you live in Virginia I’d advise leasing your high priced cars and boats and such :p). > [@](#): > > Next year, what should my tax rate be? How much in taxes should I morally pay? What should the tax code legally make me pay? Morally you shouldn’t run for president, from what I understand. But realistically and LEGALLY, your taxes will be pretty minimal, especially if you don’t go hog wild with your purchases. I’d invest in a gun, at a minimum, if you are going to stack $80 million in your closet though…and a really, REALLY big house, since that’s got to take up a lot of room. Where will you put your shoes? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/71 "2012-01-27T00:45:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > All right, I’ll sport you a Donald Trump, but what about "son of"s for example ? Even if \*\*Bricker \*\*is adamant about keeping his mouldering 80M in a sock drawer, **Bricker Jr.** is sure to be constantly surrounded by fawning sycophants, all tripping over themselves to do him favours, helping him out, laugh at his lame jokes, inviting him to their parties – \*investing \*in him. Waiting for \*\*Bricker \*_to keel over. And aren’t we all ?_ > $80M sitting in your bank account is like a gravity well. It’s a lead weight on the rubber sheet of society. That is more long term thinking than I’d expect from this bunch. And I should direct you to that treatise on behavioral economics “Nobody Knows You When You’re Down and Out,” The Derek & the Dominoes version if you wish. In turn, social enterprises can be set up and flourish on that. Hell, that’s half of a celebrity gossip rag’s income source: pictures of people whose parents have more money then the human mind can conceive. And it of course turns into a feedback loop since the more famous you get, the more your picture’s in the paper, the more famous you get. [/quote] People who expect to make money from being famous have PR agents. Otherwise fame is fleeting. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/72 "2012-01-27T00:47:13Z")
Sure, no income taxes, if he just keeps the money in cash. He’ll pay appropriate sales taxes as he spends it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/73 "2012-01-27T00:50:17Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > Nobody is arguing this in this thread, but the so called ‘Fair Tax’ or national sales tax would do just that. No, it would not. A national sales tax is collected at the time of a sale. If you save your money and don’t spend it, you don’t pay any tax on it. A savings tax would be like a property tax or the Islamic zakat - it’s a tax on assets you possess. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/74 "2012-01-27T01:01:16Z")
Several people have asked about morality. Morality has nothing to do with it. Despite what some people claim, nobody is taxed to punish them. People are taxed for the same reason McDonalds charges people for cheeseburgers - because you’ve got to pay for things. We have a government. And outside of a few fringe anarchists and libertarians, most of us agree that having a government is a good idea. So we have to pay for the cost of having a government. And taxes is how we collect money to pay those costs. Maybe you’re unhappy about some of the things the government pays for. Maybe you’re unhappy about some of the particular taxes that are collected. But we’re a democracy - and part of living in a democracy is accepting things you might not like when the majority voted for it. If you can’t accept those rules, you might as well leave America. So it’s not morality. Taxes are just something you pay for something you bought just like you pay for groceries. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/75 "2012-01-27T01:48:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Several people have asked about morality. Morality has nothing to do with it. Except when a Republican is running for President, right? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Despite what some people claim, nobody is taxed to punish them. Do you really believe that? As a counter, we have a variety of sin taxes meant to discourage negative behavior. And we have dozens of tax deductions and credits to reward good behavior. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Maybe you’re unhappy about some of the things the government pays for. Maybe you’re unhappy about some of the particular taxes that are collected. But we’re a democracy - and part of living in a democracy is accepting things you might not like when the majority voted for it. If you can’t accept those rules, you might as well leave America. I’ll remember you said that the next time people vote for lower taxes. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So it’s not morality. Taxes are just something you pay for something you bought just like you pay for groceries. Also not true, this is a terrible analogy. If it were true we’d all pay a head tax of 1/320millionth of the federal budget. Instead, we tax income earners, and not even all of them, the bottom two quintiles have a negative tax rate. As has been so often repeated, a lot of Americans are getting their groceries for free. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/76 "2012-01-27T02:02:52Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Also not true, this is a terrible analogy. If it were true we’d all pay a head tax of 1/320millionth of the federal budget. Instead, we tax income earners, and not even all of them, the bottom two quintiles have a negative tax rate. As has been so often repeated, a lot of Americans are getting their groceries for free. Funny how the tax burden is always preferable to the “being poor” burden. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/77 "2012-01-27T02:48:54Z")
[QUOTE=erislover] Funny how the tax burden is always preferable to the “being poor” burden. [/QUOTE] What’s equally funny is that rich people, even immoral ones like Romney, don’t just pile their money in the closet and avoid having to pay any tax on it at all. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/78 "2012-01-27T02:55:44Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Except when a Republican is running for President, right? I am a Republican. I just don’t feel that obligates me to be an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/79 "2012-01-27T02:56:02Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What’s equally funny is that rich people, even immoral ones like Romney, don’t just pile their money in the closet and avoid having to pay any tax on it at all. 😛 I think **Czarcasm** is still waiting for a cite for that… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/80 "2012-01-27T03:15:05Z")
I must have missed it…does he want a cite Romney being immoral, or for Romney piling millions in his closet? Or that if you piled it up that you wouldn’t have to pay taxes on the piles of cash? -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758.md?page=5)