# Congratulate me -- I Just Won the Lottery (A Tax Policy Debate) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758 "2012-01-26T18:34:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/101 "2012-01-27T17:32:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Who says that’s why they are supposed to exist? **Little Nemo** , for one. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/102 "2012-01-27T17:37:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Taxes are supposed to exist to fund the government. Using them as a tool to punish behaviors that the government disapproves of and reward those that the government approves is corrupting that purpose. But if the results are good, corruption is ok. The end justifies the means. Not really. They are still funding the government. It is a tool. Good or bad depends on what you’re using it for. That doesn’t mean _the ends justify the means_. Because _the ends justify the means_ suggests that the action is inherently wrong. There is nothing wrong with incentivizing behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/103 "2012-01-27T17:40:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > **Little Nemo** , for one. And his belief carries what weight, exactly? The Constition grants the federal goverment the power to collect taxes to provide for the general welfare, not “to fund the government”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/104 "2012-01-27T17:47:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And his belief carries what weight, exactly? The Constition grants the federal goverment the power to collect taxes to provide for the general welfare, not “to fund the government”. And of course “general welfare” is magically created when a stripper is given a tax writeoff for a boob job that increased her chest size to 56FF. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/105 "2012-01-27T17:51:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And of course “general welfare” is magically created when a stripper is given a tax writeoff for a boob job that increased her chest size to 56FF. First, what businesses do you think should get to write off their expenses? Just the ones that you like? Why shouldn’t a legal business person get to write off their expenses? Second, no stripper would have a 56 inch chest. The number part is the circumference of the lady’s rib cage. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/106 "2012-01-27T17:51:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And of course “general welfare” is magically created when a stripper is given a tax writeoff for a boob job that increased her chest size to 56FF. It’s magically created when a company buys an expensive vehicle. At least the stripper is a real person with real wants and needs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/107 "2012-01-27T17:53:11Z")
> [@](#): > > And of course “general welfare” is magically created when a stripper is given a tax writeoff for a boob job that increased her chest size to 56FF. Probably not… but general welfare certainly might be promoted when workers are encouraged to invest in the tools of their trades. You might as well say that we should stop funding the army because the framers clearly didn’t intend for some private at Fort Hood to eat subsidized ice cream. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/108 "2012-01-27T17:58:42Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Second, no stripper would have a 56 inch chest. The number part is the circumference of the lady’s rib cage. I love the fact that, in the middle of a discussion of taxes, I can learn something about ladies measurements. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/109 "2012-01-27T18:01:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > First, what businesses do you think should get to write off their expenses? Just the ones that you like? Why shouldn’t a legal business person get to write off their expenses? Irrelevant. Again, what “general welfare” is pursued when a stripper is given a tax writeoff for a boob job that increased her chest size to 56FF? > [@](#): > > Second, no stripper would have a 56 inch chest. The number part is the circumference of the lady’s rib cage. And yet it’s true. Google “Chesty Love”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/110 "2012-01-27T18:06:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Second, no stripper would have a 56 inch chest. The number part is the circumference of the lady’s rib cage. For extreme sizes, the band size can’t be measured below the bust, as would normally be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/111 "2012-01-27T18:08:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Irrelevant. Again, what “general welfare” is pursued when a stripper is given a tax writeoff for a boob job that increased her chest size to 56FF? The same general welfare that is pursued when we allow any business to write off some or all of the cost of capital improvements. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/112 "2012-01-27T18:12:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Irrelevant. Again, what “general welfare” is pursued when a stripper is given a tax writeoff for a boob job that increased her chest size to 56FF? The general welfare is pursued by allowing a business person to more easily start up and join the economy. Businesses would collapse overnight if they weren’t allowed to write off their expenses. I have a business, and my overhead is trivial compared to most, but losing write-offs would make it more difficult for me. > [@](#): > > And yet it’s true. Google “Chesty Love”. That’s pretty weird. Maybe something skews at higher sizes? Or maybe that’s the largest band available for customization… in any case, ignorance fought. She certainly doesn’t seem overly chunky. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/113 "2012-01-27T18:13:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > For extreme sizes, the band size can’t be measured below the bust, as would normally be the case. Ah, makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/114 "2012-01-27T19:11:02Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Since this is GD, does anybody actually want to take the Devil’s Advocate position that some kind of “wealth” tax needs to be imposed? Or that there is a moral imperative that such assets be taxed? > > Not that I’m volunteering, mind. There is a wealth tax already, it’s called the “death tax”. When you die your assets will be taxed by the government so even if they don’t get you in life, they will get you in death. Not that I agree with the death tax, for that money has already been taxed when it was earned. It seems as if it a redistribution program and it not only affects the “wealthy”. The death tax certainly affects the middle class as well. My parents aren’t rich, but they purchased a nice home many years ago that is probably worth in the neighborhood of $400k. They have savings of a few hundred thousand and other assets worth a few hundred. When they pass, the government will take a share of what is left before my sister and I see anything. But to answer your question, no and hell no does there need to be a wealth tax. I am not wealthy, but that doesn’t mean that I want to see those who are punished for their wealth. I do want to see them taxed on income when it’s earned and on capital gains when an investment is sold. But to level a tax on someone just because they have assets is insane. It reeks of jealousy. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/115 "2012-01-27T19:17:30Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > There is a wealth tax already, it’s called the “death tax”. When you die your assets will be taxed by the government so even if they don’t get you in life, they will get you in death. Not that I agree with the death tax, for that money has already been taxed when it was earned. It seems as if it a redistribution program and it not only affects the “wealthy”. The death tax certainly affects the middle class as well. My parents aren’t rich, but they purchased a nice home many years ago that is probably worth in the neighborhood of $400k. They have savings of a few hundred thousand and other assets worth a few hundred. When they pass, the government will take a share of what is left before my sister and I see anything. > > But to answer your question, no and hell no does there need to be a wealth tax. I am not wealthy, but that doesn’t mean that I want to see those who are punished for their wealth. I do want to see them taxed on income when it’s earned and on capital gains when an investment is sold. But to level a tax on someone just because they have assets is insane. It reeks of jealousy. It’s an inheritance tax, not a death tax. And I’m pretty sure your parents get to ignore like the first three million dollars of the property for the purposes of the tax when leaving it to children. And it isn’t double taxed. People are taxed when money changes hands. I pay you a dollar for a widget, you get taxed on that dollar, even though I was taxed when I earned it. I leave a dollar to you after I die, you get taxed on that dollar. It’s simple. I personally think inheritance should be taxed as income (with maybe a million dollar exemption). ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/116 "2012-01-27T19:18:10Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > The death tax certainly affects the middle class as well. Um, as I recall, the estate must be worth _millions_ before this kicks in. State taxes are a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/117 "2012-01-27T20:12:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Irrelevant. Again, what “general welfare” is pursued when a stripper is given a tax writeoff for a boob job that increased her chest size to 56FF? 1. This will cause the number of gigs she gets and hours she works to increase, which increases the amount she pays in taxes, and so is an investment somewhat subsidized by the government, which is likely to yield a positive return for her and the government. 2. It will require her to purchase new clothes and industrial strength bras, and thus increase consumption and increase state sales tax revenue. 3. It might draw more business to her place of employment, increasing tips for all, increasing sales, and thus increasing the amount paid in taxes by her employer. If it really is successful the employer might have to hire more people. So, it very likely contributes more to the general welfare than the deduction for a business lunch. Since she can only deduct it if she is an independent contractor, how is this not a valid business expense? It isn’t really any different from a writer being able to deduct the cost of paper and ink. I suppose you want jack booted thugs from Washington to tell her how to run and invest in her business. Would 52 be acceptable to you? 48? _Damn socialists_ ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/118 "2012-01-27T20:20:20Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > There is a wealth tax already, it’s called the “death tax”. When you die your assets will be taxed by the government so even if they don’t get you in life, they will get you in death. Not that I agree with the death tax, for that money has already been taxed when it was earned. It seems as if it a redistribution program and it not only affects the “wealthy”. The death tax certainly affects the middle class as well. My parents aren’t rich, but they purchased a nice home many years ago that is probably worth in the neighborhood of $400k. They have savings of a few hundred thousand and other assets worth a few hundred. When they pass, the government will take a share of what is left before my sister and I see anything. > > But to answer your question, no and hell no does there need to be a wealth tax. I am not wealthy, but that doesn’t mean that I want to see those who are punished for their wealth. I do want to see them taxed on income when it’s earned and on capital gains when an investment is sold. But to level a tax on someone just because they have assets is insane. It reeks of jealousy. Hate to say it, but it appears that you have been brainwashed. I just handled my father’s estate, which is nowhere near the cut off, and it didn’t have to pay a penny of inheritance tax. If your parents have an estate planning adviser who is telling them that their estate is going to have to pay inheritance taxes, they should fire him immediately. If they don’t have an adviser, maybe they should get one so they don’t make stupid decisions based on fear spread by the right. In addition, no one pays inheritance tax on their money. When it kicks in, they are dead. Though the tax comes from the estate, it is effectively paid by the heirs - who clearly did not work to earn it. The principle expressed in this thread applies perfectly to this. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/119 "2012-01-27T20:24:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Several people have asked about morality. Morality has nothing to do with it. > > Despite what some people claim, nobody is taxed to punish them. People are taxed for the same reason McDonalds charges people for cheeseburgers - because you’ve got to pay for things. > > We have a government. And outside of a few fringe anarchists and libertarians, most of us agree that having a government is a good idea. So we have to pay for the cost of having a government. And taxes is how we collect money to pay those costs. > > Maybe you’re unhappy about some of the things the government pays for. Maybe you’re unhappy about some of the particular taxes that are collected. But we’re a democracy - and part of living in a democracy is accepting things you might not like when the majority voted for it. If you can’t accept those rules, you might as well leave America. > > So it’s not morality. Taxes are just something you pay for something you bought just like you pay for groceries. > **[Sin tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_tax)** > > A sin tax (also known as a sumptuary tax, or vice tax) is an excise tax specifically levied on certain goods deemed harmful to society and individuals, such as alcohol, tobacco, drugs, candy, soft drinks, fast foods, coffee, sugar, gambling, vaping, cannabis (wherever legal for recreational use) and pornography. In contrast to Pigovian taxes, which are to pay for the damage to society caused by these goods, sin taxes increase the price in an effort to decrease the use of these goods. Increasin ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/120 "2012-01-27T20:33:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > But as I say, social engineering is still a good thing if the change brought about is a good thing. > [@Terr](#): > > “The end justifies the means”. Succinct, but understated. The means can help _define_ the ends, as well; that is, if evil means are employed, the “ends” are tainted by them to become evil ends. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758.md?page=7)