# Congratulate me -- I Just Won the Lottery (A Tax Policy Debate) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758 "2012-01-26T18:34:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/141 "2012-01-28T16:55:53Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Yes, rationalizations. The convoluted reasons people come up with to justify why they tax some people in one way, and others in another way. But then fail to tax similar groups in similar ways. > > In this case, **Bricker** had a lot of earnings in year one, and was taxed on it. In year two he still has a lot of money, but technically no earnings. He has way more money than I ever will, and yet won’t pay any more tax. If you ask people on this board how they justify taxing him in year one they will give you a nice long list. Problem is, all of those reasons still exist in year two. He’s still using public resources, still benefiting from the system, and most importantly he still has lots of money. Funny, then, that no one _actually said so_. > [@](#): > > He has essentially turned his savings into an annuity he can draw on as a salary of $2mil for the next 40 years, tax free. The rest of us will continue to work, be taxed, and have much less than $2mil per year. Doesn’t really seem fair now does it? If you say so. I don’t see the problem. > [@](#): > > It’s not a far leap to go from here and look at capital gains taxes. If **Bricker** only had $1million he could invest it at 3% and have a nice $30k salary to live on, but that would be taxed. Alternatively, he could draw $30k each year and hope he dies within 33 years. The difference is striking and was covered early in the thread. > [@](#): > > When you consider all the bitching about Romney’s tax rate, he’s making his income off the capital gains from money he was already taxed on. Would we as a society be better off if he just piled in a closet? Yes, actually, assuming that his “work” was actually beneficial. It would mean he contributed to society, we rewarded him with money, which is a promise to give other goods and services later, and then he didn’t use it. So society got something for nothing. > [@](#): > > Would we as a society be better off his Bricker was encouraged to put that $80mil to use? Hard to say. > [@](#): > > He could refinance 400 x 30 year mortgages at 3%, but then he’d be taxed on the $2.4mil he makes every year. Right, he’d be taxed on new money he got. This is the difference. It’s the only difference people have pointed out. I’m not sorry your cartoonish vision of your opponents has let you down, but you can’t draw us back into it. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/142 "2012-01-28T17:19:29Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > As long as you’re talking about imaginary nonsensical scary taxes, why not tell us there is going to be a socialist Kenyan antichrist tax? Can you imagine the speaker of the House saying "H.R. 3697 aka **Socialist Kenyan Antichrist Tax** is now open for debate? > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > If I had $80 million after taxes, I’d put them into tax-free municipal bonds at 4%, earn $3.2 million a year tax-free, and enjoy life. I’d still have to fill out a 1040 **long form** , but I’d have no taxes owed, not even Obama’s new 1.9% investment tax for his health care reform. (my bolding) Hasn’t Obama had enough grief about long form documents already? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/143 "2012-01-28T17:49:31Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Huh? Do you understand how the probate process works after a person dies with no heirs? Perhaps I don’t. I offered it as an idea off the top of my head, if it wasn’t correct I appreciate being informed. > [@](#): > > I assure you that property taxes are not required in the least to dispose of a house where there are no clear heirs in a state with no property taxes. Do you have a citation that property taxes are necessary in such a case? No, as I say, it appears by how vehement you are that I was probably mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/144 "2012-01-28T17:53:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Perhaps I don’t. I offered it as an idea off the top of my head, if it wasn’t correct I appreciate being informed. > > No, as I say, it appears by how vehement you are that I was probably mistaken. Sorry for being vehement; my relatives have chosen the last two years to suddenly start dying on me, and I’ve had to start wading hip-deep through the legalese of “what the hell do you do with all this crap when there’s no will and no one knows what to do with anything?” ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/145 "2012-01-28T18:27:06Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > But, again, not many people are calling for, nor is there much chance, of the US enacting a wealth tax rather than the income tax. From what I can tell, zero people in this thread are advocating for a wealth tax, but don’t let that get in the way of him railing against all zero of us! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/146 "2012-01-28T18:36:36Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Huh? Do you understand how the probate process works after a person dies with no heirs? I assure you that property taxes are not required in the least to dispose of a house where there are no clear heirs in a state with no property taxes. Do you have a citation that property taxes are necessary in such a case? > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Sorry for being vehement; my relatives have chosen the last two years to suddenly start dying on me, and I’ve had to start wading hip-deep through the legalese of “what the hell do you do with all this crap when there’s no will and no one knows what to do with anything?” If you’re the one dealing with your relatives’ estates, then they didn’t die without heirs. I think you mean they died intestate. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > If I had $80 million after taxes, I’d put them into tax-free municipal bonds at 4%, earn $3.2 million a year tax-free, and enjoy life. I’d still have to fill out a 1040 long form, but I’d have no taxes owed, not even Obama’s new 1.9% investment tax for his health care reform. > > Then again, some of the “bearded sages” of this message board have argued that tax-free municipal bonds are “immoral”, so I guess I’d go to hell anyhow. :rolleyes: Investing in municipal bonds helps everyone (well, at least people in that locality) just like paying taxes. I don’t really see how it’s a bad thing when you do that. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/147 "2012-01-28T18:37:40Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Hasn’t Obama had enough grief about long form documents already? 🙂 I’m sorry, I do not get the reference. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/148 "2012-01-28T18:51:37Z")
…birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/149 "2012-01-28T19:37:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If you’re the one dealing with your relatives’ estates, then they didn’t die without heirs. I think you mean they died intestate. I’ve had to deal with the case of “what if they don’t name heirs, but there are, and absolutely no one wants the assets?”, such as, the house. Same net effect from a legal standpoint. > [@](#): > > Investing in municipal bonds helps everyone (well, at least people in that locality) just like paying taxes. I don’t really see how it’s a bad thing when you do that. Well I don’t either, but apparently you can find plenty of left-leaning people who call it a “tax dodge,” “loophole for the wealthy,” and even one dipshit financial blogger who called it “like an onshore Cayman Islands bank.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/150 "2012-01-28T20:00:38Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Well I don’t either, but apparently you can find plenty of left-leaning people who call it a “tax dodge,” “loophole for the wealthy,” and even one dipshit financial blogger who called it “like an onshore Cayman Islands bank.” :rolleyes: In 2004, we learned that Mrs. Heinz-Kerry had pretty much all of her rather substantial fortune in municipal bonds, basically to help Pittsburgh. I don’t remember a lot of complaints, but I’m sure there are some in the US Needs an Enema type sites. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/151 "2012-01-28T20:02:11Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > From what I can tell, zero people in this thread are advocating for a wealth tax, but don’t let that get in the way of him railing against all zero of us! In fact, the articles and clamor have all been about Romney’s 13.9% tax rate related to his income. I’ve seen nothing computing his tax as a percentage of his wealth. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/152 "2012-01-28T21:04:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Investing in municipal bonds helps everyone (well, at least people in that locality) just like paying taxes. I don’t really see how it’s a bad thing when you do that. How does it help? A municipality issues bonds to pay for things they can’t afford, because they lack tax revenue. The bonds are then paid back with interest, where the interest is paid for from tax revenue. In essence, investing in tax free municipal bonds is like having a negative tax rate–the interest earned comes from tax payers. If instead **Bricker** was paying more in local taxes, the bonds wouldn’t be needed. > [@Voyager](#): > > In 2004, we learned that Mrs. Heinz-Kerry had pretty much all of her rather substantial fortune in municipal bonds, basically to help Pittsburgh. I don’t remember a lot of complaints, but I’m sure there are some in the US Needs an Enema type sites. I read recently Ross Pero also has most of his vast wealth in municipal bonds. When you think of all the shit around here, maybe the US does need an enema. ETA Wow, Googling “the US needs an enema” is, uh, interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/153 "2012-01-28T21:10:17Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > A municipality issues bonds to pay for things they can’t afford, because they lack tax revenue. So, municipalities shouldn’t buy anything they can’t pay for in cash? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/154 "2012-01-28T21:14:49Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So, municipalities shouldn’t buy anything they can’t pay for in cash? Is that what I said? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/155 "2012-01-28T21:20:54Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Is that what I said? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/156 "2012-01-28T21:28:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yes. Where? Feel free to quote where I said that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/157 "2012-01-28T21:30:01Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Where? Feel free to quote where I said that. I did. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/158 "2012-01-28T21:31:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I did. “A municipality issues bonds to pay for things they can’t afford, because they lack tax revenue.” “So, municipalities shouldn’t buy anything they can’t pay for in cash?” Those two statements are the same to you? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/159 "2012-01-28T21:32:22Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > “A municipality issues bonds to pay for things they can’t afford, because they lack tax revenue.” > > “So, municipalities shouldn’t buy anything they can’t pay for in cash?” > > Those two statements are the same to you? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758/160 "2012-01-28T21:37:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yes. Good to know, certainly explains a lot the confusion you seem to have with the English language. You may be shocked to learn that those two sentences are not the same. Then again, you will probably misunderstand that as well and assume I’m talking about unicorns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulate-me-i-just-won-the-lottery-a-tax-policy-debate/610758.md?page=9)