# Congratulations, America. You're worse than Afghanistan. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691 "2012-11-21T05:15:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/1 "2012-11-21T05:15:45Z")
[And if you voted for Obama, it’s all your fault.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/karzai-orders-full-afghanization-of-us-run-bagram-prison/2012/11/19/39da5080-326e-11e2-92f0-496af208bf23_story.html?wp_login_redirect=0) > [@](#): > > Afghan and U.S. officials have also disagreed on the issue of detention without trial. Washington wants the Afghan government to continue holding certain prisoners it views as dangerous, even if there is not enough evidence to try them. > > Aimal Faizi, the chief spokesman for Karzai, told reporters Monday that detention without trial is illegal in Afghanistan and that more than 50 Afghans are still being held in U.S. custody at Bagram, 35 miles northeast of Kabul, even though they have been ordered released by Afghan courts. Remember that phrase “innocent until proven guilty”? Obama doesn’t. He’s been fighting for the right to lock you up until you die, even if he’s unwilling or unable to present the slightest bit of evidence that you’ve done anything wrong. When District Judge Katherine Forrest rightly declared it unconstitutional, he didn’t even wait for the ink to dry before challenging the decision. And now we’re in the situation where Afghanistan - fucking _Afghanistan_ - is explaining to the United States of America that you can’t just go around locking people up in oubliettes without justification. So thanks a lot to all you arseholes who voted for the more effective evil. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/2 "2012-11-21T05:17:53Z")
Not that I like it, and not that a tu quoque is a meaningful argument, but was detention without trial really an issue on the ballot? That is to say, could we have voted in this election for a no-more-detention candidate? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/3 "2012-11-21T05:27:32Z")
You could have voted for Johnson or Stein. Even a vote for Romney might have at least resulted in some opposition to committing human rights violations against Muslims, even if the Democrats were only doing it to be contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/4 "2012-11-21T05:34:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You could have voted for Johnson or Stein. Even a vote for Romney might have at least resulted in some opposition to committing human rights violations against Muslims, even if the Democrats were only doing it to be contrary. I didn’t realize that was the only pressing issue or nation faced. Wow, did I make the wrong call then. ETA: Your claim that Republicans are less likely to harshly treat brown skinned people from foreign countries is funny. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/5 "2012-11-21T05:35:25Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You could have voted for Johnson or Stein. Even a vote for Romney might have at least resulted in some opposition to committing human rights violations against Muslims, even if the Democrats were only doing it to be contrary. Voting for those two clowns would have resulted in a wasted vote. We don’t need crackpots running the country. I agree with a number of libertarian ideas, but things like getting rid of the Fed and other crazy ideas just make the average Libertarian-ish candidate a total non-starter. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/6 "2012-11-21T05:35:45Z")
I don’t get the pit. This started with republicans, right? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/7 "2012-11-21T05:40:09Z")
You never noticed that we hold people in detention without trial right here in the US of A? It’s not just our prisons that are full, it’s our jails too. So you’re in favor of releasing suspects of violent crimes after they’ve been arrested? I’m not getting it. And we ought to get the hell out of Afghanistan anyway. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/8 "2012-11-21T05:43:04Z")
Romney said that the continued presence of U.S. forces in Afghanistan should ultimately be decided by the military’s top brass, and that is the case here. Afghan officials and lawyers recently did try to visit their clients in one of the jails. The Afghans approved the visits, but the United States military blocked them. Seems to me that Romney would had ignored their concerns, I don’t agree with what is going on here, but if you say that it is now politically possible to dis the US military on this item and that Obama should accelerate the withdrawal of the US forces in Afghanistan I would be happy. However you need to remember who is the organization that is getting most of the blame for not doing the right thing. And if the military does not recommend a faster withdrawal from Afghanistan, I would say that it was yesterday that Obama should had gone over the military on this and the withdrawal. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/9 "2012-11-21T05:49:42Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I didn’t realize that was the only pressing issue or nation faced. What, like 93% of all income growth going to the top 1%? That seems like a pretty big problem too, you should totally have gotten rid of the guy who saw that happen on his watch. > [@](#): > > ETA: Your claim that Republicans are less likely to harshly treat brown skinned people from foreign countries is funny. My claim is that Romney would be less _capable_ of committing these sorts of human rights violations, because then the Democrats might go back to pretending they give a fuck. > [@TriPolar](#): > > You never noticed that we hold people in detention without trial right here in the US of A? It’s not just our prisons that are full, it’s our jails too. So you’re in favor of releasing suspects of violent crimes after they’ve been arrested? I’m not getting it. And we ought to get the hell out of Afghanistan anyway. This is not about whether or not you let someone out on bail before their trial. This is about what happens when you decide there will never _be_ a trial. And yes, if you suspect that someone has committed a violent crime but have no intention of giving them a speedy and public trial _as required by the Sixth Amendment of the United States Constitution_, I am of the opinion that you should let them go. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/10 "2012-11-21T06:01:50Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > This is not about whether or not you let someone out on bail before their trial. This is about what happens when you decide there will never _be_ a trial. And yes, if you suspect that someone has committed a violent crime but have no intention of giving them a speedy and public trial _as required by the Sixth Amendment of the United States Constitution_, I am of the opinion that you should let them go. First, those speedy trials can take years. And second, it’s a problem right here at home. We don’t have to point at Afghanistan to see this problem. And third, we ought to get the hell out of Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/11 "2012-11-21T06:07:34Z")
Interesting article – I really hope withdrawing from Afghanistan doesn’t turn into a shit show. IF we withdraw from Afghanistan. I was under the impression that troops were being pulled by 2014 at the latest, but the OP’s link states that 20,000 could remain into 2015 and beyond. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/12 "2012-11-21T08:33:22Z")
Like GWB was better on human rights. It’s what empires do, it’s not a party political trait. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/13 "2012-11-21T09:07:36Z")
If you think Obama is in any way, shape, or form responsible for the admittedly fucked up state of this situation you’re blind. I’ve typed this so many times my fingers hurt - there is a limit to a presidents power. You can’t inherit a problem this large and single handedly correct it without support, support that he was never going to get from the Republican party. A vote for any other candidate would not have resolved the problem in the last 4 years, and you’re ridiculously immature in your reasoning to believe that. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/14 "2012-11-21T09:10:05Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Like GWB was better on human rights. No, but everyone fought GWB on his human rights abuses. It was a big story in the press, mainline politicians came out in opposition of it, etc. When Obama does it, most democrats sit on their hands. As such, democrats are actually more capable of making this secretive evil shit happen. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/15 "2012-11-21T09:32:59Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > If you think Obama is in any way, shape, or form responsible for the admittedly fucked up state of this situation you’re blind. I’ve typed this so many times my fingers hurt - there is a limit to a presidents power. In order for this to be a meaningful statement, Obama would have to be against indefinite detention, but powerless to stop it. He’s not. It is the Obama administration that tried to move the indefinite detention of Gitmo detainees to American soil, the Obama administration that convinced the chairman of the senate committee on defence to remove the exceptions for US citizens in the NDAA, and the Obama administration that immediately challenged the ruling that indefinite detention is unconstitutional. Obama isn’t just some impotent bystander in this fight, he is the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/16 "2012-11-21T10:39:42Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > In order for this to be a meaningful statement, Obama would have to be against indefinite detention, but powerless to stop it. He’s not. It is the Obama administration that tried to move the indefinite detention of Gitmo detainees to American soil, the Obama administration that convinced the chairman of the senate committee on defence to remove the exceptions for US citizens in the NDAA, and the Obama administration that immediately challenged the ruling that indefinite detention is unconstitutional. > > Obama isn’t just some impotent bystander in this fight, he is the enemy. You haven’t presented any evidence whatsoever that McCain or Romney would have done any differently. As stated by \*\*zoid \*\*above, this is not a partisan issue. But if you’re this determined to blame US policy on the current President, welp… I hear Canada’s pretty nice this time of year. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/17 "2012-11-21T10:42:01Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > My claim is that Romney would be less _capable_ of committing these sorts of human rights violations, because then the Democrats might go back to pretending they give a fuck. You mean like the way they were so effective in preventing these abuses when George Bush was president? At least by electing Obama, we’ve somewhat reduced the chances that we’re going to go in and wreck yet another country. And, unlike Stein or Johnson, we also got someone who won’t be so inept that they end up wrecking _this_ country, too. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/18 "2012-11-21T10:42:44Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > You haven’t presented any evidence whatsoever that McCain or Romney would have done any differently. As stated by \*\*zoid \*\*above, this is not a partisan issue. But if you’re this determined to blame US policy on the current President, welp… I hear Canada’s pretty nice this time of year. The OP is Australian. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/19 "2012-11-21T13:23:18Z")
I voted for (and supported) Obama because I believe that he was the best choice of the ones offered- best for America, and best for humanity in general. It doesn’t mean I agree with everything he does. You have failed, miserably, **Grumman** , in your many attempts to convince me that voting for someone else would have made America or the world any better (or prevented it from getting any worse). I disagree with Obama on many issues, and I intend to make my voice heard, but I still support him over the alternatives. And it’s not a grudging support- I think he’s far, far better for the country and for humanity than the alternatives were. Voting is about choosing among the candidates available. Despite his flaws, Obama was the best choice (by far). I’m very confident I made the right choice. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691/20 "2012-11-21T14:09:35Z")
You know who else thought that combatants in a war could be detained in a foreign country without a criminal trial to establish guilt? Every head of government who has ever been involved in a war overseas. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-america-youre-worse-than-afghanistan/641691.md?page=2)