# Congratulations, Maatorc, on your century. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 4, 2008, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432 "2008-10-04T10:37:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/141 "2008-10-13T03:33:05Z")
scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a scratch //skip// like an old 78 with a ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/142 "2008-10-13T04:10:03Z")
I’m starting to think it’s a bot. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/143 "2008-10-13T04:41:21Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > The answer to ALL questions, which cannot conceivably be seen as a vague hint, as to the existence and proof of the _basis of the anatomical myth_, is on page 170, paragraph 8, of ’ **Life is real only, then, when “I am”** ’ by G. I. Gurdjieff, originally published under copyright by Triangular Editions, Inc., 1975, and in 1991 by Viking Press. So. You got nothin’? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/144 "2008-10-13T05:26:04Z")
How’d I guess that once someone tracked down a book based on purposefully vague hints, they’d be told to go to another book. Well, here is [a pdf copy of](http://s3.amazonaws.com/word_secret_directory/docs%2F392485.pdf?Signature=rSv%2F0iwlui0mHWDOIQlssrsfqxE%3D&Expires=1223875381&AWSAccessKeyId=0QDQ3FGYV5Q7TY85W4R2) _Life is Real Only Then, when “I Am”_ Page 170 should be short enough to quote for fair use purposes. If not, mods please feel free to truncate my quote: > [@](#): > > In short, irrespective of my unquenchable wish to work, and irrespective of the fact that at any convenient or inconvenient opportunity I wrote and wrote, so that I might finish this book and attain the end of all the tasks I had set myself, I was, nevertheless, unable to do so. > As [on April 9th, 1935] I had finally finished the prologue, I began on the same day to write this chapter. > > And it was in connection with the exposition of this second chapter, on which I am now working, that the coincidence took place, with which I have decided to acquaint the reader, as profitable for this chapter. > > The whole day and night of April the 10th, with extraordinary efforts, I worked and reworked the beginning of this chapter, which was unsatisfactory to me, and it was not until the evening of the next day that it seemed as if something was beginning to arrange itself, and the certainty awoke in me that from now on it would be easier. > > But, after a few hours of sleep, as I began again to write further, and came to that point where I had first used the expression “problem of the prolongation of human life,” I became stuck again. > > This time I became stuck because it was suddenly clear to me that for a full explanation of this question which, among all the questions raised by me in this book, I had decided to make the basic question, or as one might say, the “clue,” I must without fail, in the first place, if only briefly, inform the reader what position this question takes in present-day science and in the mentation of contemporary people. > > I began to ponder how to begin, so that the explanation of this question should be as comprehensive as possible, and at the same time not too long. > However I “turned” the facts, known for this case, and That’s it, the secret revealed. That proves that Cthulu is “BoB’s” daddy, Eris is Lord, I’m an Illuminatus, and y’all aint. QED, bitches! ---
**Author:** ![maatorc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@maatorc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maatorc)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/145 "2008-10-13T06:18:22Z")
Gurdjieff’s explanation is in paragraph 1 on page 80 of the link given in post 129. The printing shown has different pagination to others. \ Must the line also be given? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/146 "2008-10-13T07:08:57Z")
[QUOTE=Gurdjief] . If you really want to know the truth, I will tell you how matters stand, and why I pronounced such an absurdity. First of all, it must be said that in the outpourings of various occultists and other will-less parasites, when they discuss spiritual questions, not everything is entirely wrong. What they call the “soul” does really exist, but not everybody necessarily has one. A soul is not born with man and can neither unfold nor take form in him so long as his body is not fully developed. It is a luxury that can only appear and attain completion in the period of “responsible age,” that is to say, in a man’s maturity. The soul, like the physical body, is also matter—only, it consists of “finer” matter. The matter from which the soul is formed and from which it later nourishes and perfects itself is, in general, elaborated during the processes that take place between the two essential forces upon which the entire Universe is founded. The matter in which the soul is coated can be produced exclusively by the action of these two forces, which are called “good” and “evil” by ancient science, or “affirmation” and “negation,” while contemporary science calls them “attraction” and “repulsion.” In the common presence of a man, these two forces have their source in two of the totalities of general psychic functioning, [/QUOTE] This is your big proof? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/147 "2008-10-13T07:29:52Z")
> [@maatorc](#): > > The printing shown has different pagination to others. Gasp! > [@maatorc](#): > > Must the line also be given? Who are we to demand such a boon from one so mighty and wise as thee, oh great teacher? Surely you are a Perfected Being, but we cannot find any proof or refutation for that because, as you tell us, all you can prove is that a myth exists. And of course if the myth of ‘human perfectability’ is true, one must first become a Perfected human, like Jesus in order to know it’s true, they have to do it themselves. Which means, of course, that you are telling us it is true, that you know this because you are an Ascended Master, and you are like Jesus in your mighty wisdom. Speaking of which, I have decided that you are at least a mid-grade troll, and can be quite amusing as you strut and preen. We shall keep you as our pet troll, and name you Harvey. You can live in a box and spew liquid crazysauce to amuse us. Surely, though, Your Eminence has realized that Gurdjieff is talking about a human’s “mental world”, which grows by a process of inclinations for or against stimuli, both internal and external in origin, as people’s personalities and thoughts evolve? Or, that we decide what is “good” or “evil”, and so build up layers of habit and create our nature as individual people who are still mostly mechanical in terms of the actions of their minds and bodies? When he talks about the soul he means one’s nature, personality, mind, etc… When he talks about the third world, he’s talking about the ego, with its ability to look at itself and produce a meta-level? That he’s describing the creation of a ‘mental body’, that is what science calls the ‘mind and personality’ and Gurdjieff calls the ‘soul’? That when someone follows certain habits and practices, in thought and action, that becomes a second level abstraction that defines them as a person? That, then, there is a third level of abstraction, even, a third “world”. where there are meta-significances to the patterns of beliefs and actions, and you can apply thought to thought and analyze yourself through introspection? You’ve realized that Gurdjieff points out that the "soul " is physical, as its formed of ‘finer stuff’, that is the in the structure of our nervous system that make up our reactions, emotions and cognitive abilities? So, it’s not about astral projection or bad juju or whatever is currently making you feel special, it’s Gurdjieff talking about how the people craft their own personalities over time, and that through introspection and trying to obtain authentic perception of yourself and reality around you, you can direct your own life path towards a longer, happier life? ~sigh~ For those who want to check my work, read pages 78 to 81, I think, where the context of Gurdjieff’s claims should become quite clear. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/148 "2008-10-13T07:40:32Z")
Actually, I have another question about Gurdjieff- why should we care what he says? Convince me that the man actually had wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/149 "2008-10-13T07:56:35Z")
He was expressing a rather common theme, common to folks like Neitzche and Crowley at least. Neitzche put it best: “Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman–a rope over an abyss. A dangerous across, a dangerous on-the-way, a dangerous looking-back, a dangerous shuddering and stopping. What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end: what can be loved in man is that he is an overture and a going under. I love those who do not know how to live, for they are those who cross over.” So I guess whether or not you think that’s wise… depends on whether or not you’d agree with Neitzche. We’ve all got our favorite philosophers, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Lars\_Aruns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@Lars\_Aruns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lars_Aruns)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/150 "2008-10-13T09:49:31Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Actually, I have another question about Gurdjieff- why should we care what he says? Convince me that the man actually had wisdom. Well, yes, exactly. I mean, it sounds reasonable stuff, but I remember discussing this kind of things with a couple of mates at the age of, say, 16. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/151 "2008-10-13T10:05:34Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Actually, I have another question about Gurdjieff- why should we care what he says? Convince me that the man actually had wisdom. Our dear little troll and his philosophy have been thoroughly explained by a cockroach (who also was a victim of transmigration) throwing himself headfirst down on typewriter keys: > [@](#): > > do not tell me > said warty bliggens > that there is not a purpose > in the universe > the thought is blasphemy > a little more > conversation revealed > that warty bliggens > considers himself to be > the center of the same > universe > the earth exists > to grow toadstools for him > to sit under > the sun to give him light > by day and the moon > and wheeling constellations > to make beautiful > the night for the sake of > warty bliggens (Excepted from [“warty bliggens, the toad” by Don Marquis, in archy and mehitabel, 1927](http://www.donmarquis.com/readingroom/archybooks/warty.html).) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/152 "2008-10-13T10:08:46Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > This is your big proof? Proof go poof! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/153 "2008-10-13T10:20:34Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Actually, I have another question about Gurdjieff- why should we care what he says? Convince me that the man actually had wisdom. Cleverer men than I have explained the relevance of Gurdjieff’s teachings, so I can only point you in their direction. But I ask you, could a man without at least a little wisdom reallly have fooled so many intelligent people for so long? > [@](#): > > Orage, Ouspensky and Gurdjieff painted a crisis-picture—in one part as black as any school of Western pessimism, in another part so bright as early Christianity. In this balance-by-contrast of the dark and the light is a principal reason for their appeal to moderns. [Black Sheep Philosophers.](http://www.gurdjieff.org/munson1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/154 "2008-10-13T10:28:52Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Cleverer men than I have explained the relevance of Gurdjieff’s teachings, so I can only point you in their direction. But I ask you, could a man without at least a little wisdom reallly have fooled so many intelligent people for so long? Some folks like sniffing brain farts. For every mystic philosopher, there will be followers. Wisdom has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/155 "2008-10-13T10:37:22Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Some folks like sniffing brain farts. For every mystic philosopher, there will be followers. Wisdom has nothing to do with it. From the opening paragraph of my above link: > [@](#): > > ON October 29, 1949, at the American Hospital in Paris died a Caucasian Greek named Georgy Ivanovitch Gurdjieff. A few nights later at Cooper Union, New York, a medal was presented to the revolutionary architect Frank Lloyd Wright. After his part in the ceremony was over, Wright asked the chairman’s permission to make an announcement. **“The greatest man in the world,” he said, “has recently died. His name was Gurdjieff.”** I’d rather sniff Frank Lloyd Wright’s dead farts, than read your thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/156 "2008-10-13T10:58:24Z")
Now that’s a truly great proof, or poof, or pffttt, or . . . well . . . I don’t quite know what it is [Muffin pats ivan astikov on the head]. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/157 "2008-10-13T11:30:47Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’d rather sniff Frank Lloyd Wright’s dead farts, than read your thoughts. And if Gurdjieff were an architect, I’d be impressed. Historically speaking, lots of very smart people have believed some very stupid shit. Are you interested in reading about Isaac Newton’s views on alchemy? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/158 "2008-10-13T11:41:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And if Gurdjieff were an architect, I’d be impressed. > > Historically speaking, lots of very smart people have believed some very stupid shit. Are you interested in reading about Isaac Newton’s views on alchemy? Are you saying Gurdjieff’s thoughts on the human condition are about as relevant as Newton’s post-medieval musings on The Philosopher’s Stone, and such? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/159 "2008-10-13T11:50:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And if Gurdjieff were an architect, I’d be impressed. > > Historically speaking, lots of very smart people have believed some very stupid shit. Are you interested in reading about Isaac Newton’s views on alchemy? When it comes to “bringing Philosophy home,” ivan astikov takes a certain Bacon citing treatise by philosopher-scientist Benjamin Franklin as gospel. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432/160 "2008-10-13T11:54:48Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Are you saying Gurdjieff’s thoughts on the human condition are about as relevant as Newton’s post-medieval musings on The Philosopher’s Stone, and such? No, I’m saying that Wright’s thoughts on Gurdjieff are as relevant as Newton’s thoughts on alchemy. Meaning, not at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congratulations-maatorc-on-your-century/466432.md?page=9)