# Congress Can Seek Trump's Tax Records, DC Circuit Court Rules **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 11, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635 "2019-10-11T15:33:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/1 "2019-10-11T15:33:52Z")
NYT broke the story, buy there’s no paywall on CNN.[Donald Trump loses appeal to stop House subpoena of his tax documents | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/politics/trump-mazars-appeal-decision/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/2 "2019-10-11T15:37:19Z")
Excellent! ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/3 "2019-10-11T15:44:29Z")
Just to clarify, this is a ruling from the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. It’s not the district court for DC; this was the appeal of that court’s ruling. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/4 "2019-10-11T15:57:00Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > Just to clarify, this is a ruling from the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. It’s not the district court for DC; this was the appeal of that court’s ruling. Sorry, should’ve been more clear. I went to law school in DC and we always would just call it the “DC Circuit” for short. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/5 "2019-10-12T12:40:17Z")
So how many more appeals and court rulings to go before it gets to SCOTUS? Because you know Trump isn’t about concede defeat and hand over his tax returns. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/6 "2019-10-12T12:46:16Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So how many more appeals and court rulings to go before it gets to SCOTUS? Because you know Trump isn’t about concede defeat and hand over his tax returns. This should always be the first question in such threads. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/7 "2019-10-12T15:28:03Z")
The [Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2019/10/11/us/politics/ap-us-trump-lawsuit-financial-records.html?searchResultPosition=1) makes it clear that the tax returns are in a separate case, and that these records pertain only to investigations of conflicts of interest. > [@](#): > > The House Committee on Oversight and Reform subpoenaed records from Mazars in April. They include documents from 2011 to 2018 that the House wants for investigation into the president’s reporting of his finances and potential conflicts of interest. The list of documents makes no mention of Trump’s tax returns, which are the subject of separate legal disputes. … > > “Contrary to the President’s arguments, the Committee possesses authority under both the House Rules and the Constitution to issue the subpoena, and Mazars must comply,” Judge David Tatel wrote, joined by Judge Patricia Millett. Tatel was appointed by President Bill Clinton. Millett is an appointee of President Barack Obama… > > The case is one of several working its way through courts in which Trump is fighting with Congress over records. The House Ways and Means Committee has sued the Trump administration over access to the president’s tax returns . In New York, Trump sued to prevent Deutsche Bank and Capital One from complying with House subpoenas for banking and financial records. A judge ruled against him, and Trump appealed. Trump also is in court trying to stop the Manhattan District Attorney from obtaining his tax returns. I think you should ask a mod to change the title, since it’s misleading about the actual decision. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/8 "2019-10-12T22:17:22Z")
SCOTUS is virtually certain to overrule, taking a year to do so. And even if they uphold it, how will they enforce it? It still requires people to follow the law and since the AG is all-in with trump, it ain’t gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/9 "2019-10-13T14:08:12Z")
Maybe this is the wrong thread to ask this but are the tax returns actually linked to some sort of crime or is this just a fishing expedition by the Dems? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/10 "2019-10-13T15:02:35Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Maybe this is the wrong thread to ask this but are the tax returns actually linked to some sort of crime or is this just a fishing expedition by the Dems? False dichotomy. [Richard Neal’s letter to Charles Rettig (IRS Commissioner)](https://waysandmeans.house.gov/sites/democrats.waysandmeans.house.gov/files/documents/Neal%20Letter%20to%20Rettig%20(signed)%20-%202019.04.03.pdf) gives a reason for the request. > [@](#): > > Consistent with its authority, the Committee is considering legislative proposals and conducting oversight related to our Federal tax laws, including, but not limited to, the extent to which the IRS audits and enforces the Federal tax laws against the President. Under the Internal Revenue Service Manual, individual income tax returns of a President are subject to mandatory examination, but this practice is IRS policy and not codified in the Federal tax laws. It is necessary for the Committee to determine the scope of any such examination and whether it includes a review of underlying business activities to be reported on the individual. income tax return. The tax returns requested are probably, “linked to some sort of crime,” but that is not the reason for Richard Neal’s request since the House Ways and Means Committee is not a criminal investigative organization. The request was made for a legitimate legislative purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Annoyed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f04885/32.png) [@Annoyed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoyed)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/11 "2019-10-13T16:02:18Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Maybe this is the wrong thread to ask this but are the tax returns actually linked to some sort of crime or is this just a fishing expedition by the Dems? Fishing expedition, clearly. And quite a pathetically obvious one. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/12 "2019-10-13T16:03:48Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > Fishing expedition, clearly. > > And quite a pathetically obvious one. Trump seems to try awfully hard to conceal the presence of any fish. ---
**Author:** ![Annoyed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f04885/32.png) [@Annoyed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoyed)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/13 "2019-10-13T16:18:33Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Trump seems to try awfully hard to conceal the presence of any fish. So? Because someone doesn’t want to show you some shit it gives you the right to use the full weight of the government to try and get it? It’s pretty disgusting the lengths y’all will go to “get” someone you don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/14 "2019-10-13T16:20:14Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > So? Because someone doesn’t want to show you some shit it gives you the right to use the full weight of the government to try and get it? > > It’s pretty disgusting the lengths y’all will go to “get” someone you don’t like. Like extorting a foreign government, you mean? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/15 "2019-10-13T16:28:04Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > So? Because someone doesn’t want to show you some shit it gives you the right to use the full weight of the government to try and get it? > > It’s pretty disgusting the lengths y’all will go to “get” someone you don’t like. You mean like Hilary’s emails and Benghazi? If this was a Democrat, you’d be all for using the full weight of the government to try and get it. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/16 "2019-10-13T17:58:08Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > So? Because someone doesn’t want to show you some shit it gives you the right to use the full weight of the government to try and get it? Good point. It’s not relevant what Trump wants or doesn’t want. The right of congressional oversight flows directly from the Constitution and has been affirmed by the courts. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/17 "2019-10-13T18:11:38Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Good point. It’s not relevant what Trump wants or doesn’t want. The right of congressional oversight flows directly from the Constitution and has been affirmed by the courts. But does it extend so far as to demand any documents from anyone for any reason? ISTM that subpoenaing documents should be based on other evidence being present like on a search warrant or is Congress exempt from the 4th Amendment? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/18 "2019-10-13T18:38:04Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But does it extend so far as to demand any documents from anyone for any reason? Why are you framing this question about “anyone for any reason”? You know that Congress is doing the investigating, and the target is the the President, head of the Executive branch. This is authorized and required by the Constitution. It’s not about Nancy Pelosi shaking you down at a roadblock for your 1040’s (unless you are part of the Executive Branch, and if so, you should tell us). ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/19 "2019-10-13T20:18:46Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But does it extend so far as to demand any documents from anyone for any reason? They are not requesting _any_ documents. They are requesting tax returns which they have been specifically authorized to do under [U.S. Code § 6103 (f)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/6103). > [@](#): > > Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635/20 "2019-10-14T14:06:10Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > They are not requesting _any_ documents. They are requesting tax returns which they have been specifically authorized to do under [U.S. Code § 6103 (f)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/6103). Quick question then. Is there any punishment if information from those tax returns get leaked to the press or other people? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/congress-can-seek-trumps-tax-records-dc-circuit-court-rules/841635.md?page=2)