# Connect Santa Claus and Middle-earth (or, another insane Tolkien thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 4, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990 "2009-12-04T15:48:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/1 "2009-12-04T15:48:01Z")
I thought about putting my usual insanely detailed justification, but I got bored in the middle of the paragraph and said _fuck that shit_. I must be getting old. Anyway…connect old Kris Kringle with the Greater Perfesser’s elves. Or, if you prefer, you can link Rudolph & the other reindeer to the kine of Aman. Whatever floats your boat. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/2 "2009-12-04T15:50:57Z")
Christmas - something that a lot of people get excited about that bores me to tears. Tolkien - see above. What do I win? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/3 "2009-12-04T15:59:11Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Christmas - something that a lot of people get excited about that bores me to tears. > Tolkien - see above. > > What do I win? 😃 A lump of coal in your stocking. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/4 "2009-12-04T16:01:15Z")
Come on - Santa Claus is obviously Tom Bombadil’s and Goldberry’s son. But instead of singing goofy songs and frolicking about in meadows, he decided to make and distribute toys. He also preferred a colder climate, so he moved to the North Pole and set up shop there. Santa’s just as magical, mystical, loveable and immortal as his parents, though. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/5 "2009-12-04T16:04:14Z")
Well, Santa (Father Christmas) appears in _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ by C.S. Lewis. Lewis was J.R.R. Tolkien’s close friend and colleague, and they often helped each other with their writings. Tolkien wrote _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ which introduced the world to Middle Earth. QED. There, just like that Kevin Bacon game. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/6 "2009-12-04T16:07:37Z")
And let’s not forget this, although the Professor drew no direct connection between Santa and his Middle-earth legendarium: [http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Father-Christmas-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0618512659/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259942796&sr=1-1](http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Father-Christmas-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0618512659/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259942796&sr=1-1) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/7 "2009-12-04T17:32:25Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > A lump of coal in your stocking. Right on! A few more and I’ll have fuel for the winter. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/8 "2009-12-04T17:35:44Z")
“…One nose to light them all, and in the darkness, guide them.” ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/9 "2009-12-04T17:37:55Z")
Of _course_ Rudolph can’t fly – none of the reindeer can. They don’t have wings. I don’t care what it says in Professor Moore’s appendices. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/10 "2009-12-04T17:41:08Z")
Be sure to leave some Lembas out on Christmas eve. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/11 "2009-12-04T17:43:44Z")
I love it when Tom Bombadil comes down the chimney on Christmas Eve and makes your Christmas Tree let go of the cat. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/12 "2009-12-04T18:24:18Z")
Well, the entrance _is_ at the North Pole. No, wait, that’s _Hollow_ Earth. Never mind, then. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/13 "2009-12-04T18:39:19Z")
I couldn’t find any specific Tolkien names on [Santa’s Family Tree](http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/santas-family-tree/). But it’s populated with elves, dwarves & trolls. Among a multitude of other strange beings. (Click twice on the image to read it.) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/14 "2009-12-04T19:06:26Z")
\*Cross Posting what I posted elsewhere. \* Well right off the bat, don’t think Santa’s Elves are the Elves of Middle-Earth. It should be obvious that it is actually a small group of Dwarven Toy smiths. As to Santa, he is surely a minor Maia and well adjusted to the Northern Ice Sheet. He is probably the patron of the Snowmen of Forochel. I wonder though if he was of Aulë’s people or perhaps Oromë 's. Keep in mind that we already know that Father Christmas wanders around Narnia and it should not be a big surprise to find him in Middle-Earth either. Indeed, Tolkien wrote of [Father Christmas’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Father_Christmas_Letters) fights vs. the **Goblins** and this leads even more the idea of the “Santa Elves” really being Dwarves. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/15 "2009-12-04T19:22:07Z")
\*He sees you when you’re sleeping He sees when you’re awake He knows if you’ve been bad or good So be good for goodness’ sake! \* As Calvin once shrewdly observed about Santa Claus: “Kindly old elf, or CIA spook?” So, let’s think through again what we know about Santa Claus. He’s awfully long lived for a human, though by most accounts he started out as one, at least. He lives somewhere distant and legendary that no mortal has ever seen and returned to tell about. He has an interest in mind control, and engages in long-distance surveillance of other people’s behavior. He is ready to (promise to) shower rewards on those whose actions he deems in line with his goals. He can fly high in the sky, using fantastic flying beasts, yet remains imperceptible to all but the most clear-sighted of humans. My goodness. Is he… A latter-day Ringwraith?! Whatever happened to Saruman’s ring anyway, the one he made as “a child’s flattery” of the One Ring of Sauron which was cast into Mount Doom? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/16 "2009-12-04T19:52:02Z")
> [@](#): > > And let’s not forget this, although the Professor drew no direct connection between Santa and his Middle-earth legendarium: [http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Father...9942796&sr=1-1](http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Father...9942796&sr=1-1) This is what I was going to post, too, and I’m frankly amazed that **Skald** wasn’t familiar with it. I really need to get ahold of a copy and re-read it. It should be noted, too, that in an early draft Tolkien did in fact have Father Christmas in Lord of the Rings (he showed up in Bree, I think), but then decided that it wasn’t the right kind of story for that. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/17 "2009-12-04T20:09:37Z")
Here’s my theory: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=348644&highlight=santa](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=348644&highlight=santa) ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/18 "2009-12-04T20:20:08Z")
Also see [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=48886&page=6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=48886&page=6), starting at post #273. ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/19 "2009-12-04T23:02:45Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Come on - Santa Claus is obviously Tom Bombadil’s and Goldberry’s son. But instead of singing goofy songs and frolicking about in meadows, he decided to make and distribute toys. He also preferred a colder climate, so he moved to the North Pole and set up shop there. Santa’s just as magical, mystical, loveable and immortal as his parents, though. This theory seems pretty persuasive. When I read the thread title, I thought to myself, “Tom Bombadil must have something to do with this.” After reading this, though: > [@robardin](#): > > \*He sees you when you’re sleeping > He sees when you’re awake > He knows if you’ve been bad or good > So be good for goodness’ sake! > \* > As Calvin once shrewdly observed about Santa Claus: “Kindly old elf, or CIA spook?” So, let’s think through again what we know about Santa Claus. > > He’s awfully long lived for a human, though by most accounts he started out as one, at least. > > He lives somewhere distant and legendary that no mortal has ever seen and returned to tell about. > > He has an interest in mind control, and engages in long-distance surveillance of other people’s behavior. > > He is ready to (promise to) shower rewards on those whose actions he deems in line with his goals. > > He can fly high in the sky, using fantastic flying beasts, yet remains imperceptible to all but the most clear-sighted of humans. > > My goodness. Is he… A latter-day Ringwraith?! Whatever happened to Saruman’s ring anyway, the one he made as “a child’s flattery” of the One Ring of Sauron which was cast into Mount Doom? I wonder, is there anyway to keep ‘Santa’ from visiting at all? If I’m good he brings presents. If I’m bad he brings coal. Are there any rules for keeping Ringwraiths out of your house, or am I hiding in the attic all night with fake bodies in the beds? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990/20 "2009-12-05T01:24:40Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > Whatever happened to Saruman’s ring anyway, the one he made as “a child’s flattery” of the One Ring of Sauron which was cast into Mount Doom? According to the [Crackpot Tolkien Theories Page](http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/theories.htm): > [@](#): > > But if Saruman were to experiment with making Rings of Power, he wouldn’t make only one, would he? No; I think he’d make at least one other, and try to get his ring to exert an influence over the wearer of the other. And who would he give such a ring to? > > Grima Wormtongue seems the obvious answer, since he was so completely under Saruman’s control. > > …Kind of helps you see Saruman in a new light, doesn’t it? Sure, Sauron may have had the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths; but perhaps Saruman in his turn had _Grima,_ the _Ringworm!_🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/connect-santa-claus-and-middle-earth-or-another-insane-tolkien-thread/519990.md?page=2)