# Consciousness in the womb **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 30, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267 "2012-03-30T13:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/1 "2012-03-30T13:03:33Z")
Do we know how consciousness grows in a developing fetus? Does it parallel the consciousness of various animal species? And the big question: How does the first “spark” of awareness happen, from something that previously had none? Or don’t we even know enough about our own adult consciousness to answer these questions? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/2 "2012-03-30T13:08:28Z")
Well, one problem with trying to find out is that [people don’t get memories that can last into adulthood until at least age 2 or so](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_amnesia). And before age 2, they generally can’t talk well enough to answer this kind of question. So we can’t ask people what it was like to gain consciousness in the womb. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/3 "2012-03-30T13:17:50Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Well, one problem with trying to find out is that [people don’t get memories that can last into adulthood until at least age 2 or so](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_amnesia). And before age 2, they generally can’t talk well enough to answer this kind of question. So we can’t ask people what it was like to gain consciousness in the womb. I have a rather detailed memory from well before the age of 2, and it has been verified by people who were adults at the time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/4 "2012-03-30T13:51:45Z")
As have I (10 months). I also was saying my first words at 7 months-if you asked me about said first memory when I was say 16 months, I probably would have said “Big orange tiger in sky!” ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/5 "2012-03-30T13:55:12Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I have a rather detailed memory from well before the age of 2, and it has been verified by people who were adults at the time. But you don’t remember whether or not you were conscious in the womb. If you did, you wouldn’t need to ask this question. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/6 "2012-03-30T14:47:46Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I have a rather detailed memory from well before the age of 2, and it has been verified by people who were adults at the time. > [@John\_DiFool](#): > > As have I (10 months). I also was saying my first words at 7 months-if you asked me about said first memory when I was say 16 months, I probably would have said “Big orange tiger in sky!” These are very interesting if true. It has never been proven that an adult has recalled an event directly that happened to them before the age of 2. And there is discussion about whether the threshold is actually at 3. Then between 3-5 most people have one or two patchy memories before our late childhood where we gradually become able to create memories as effectively as adults do. * * * In terms of the OP, it is unlikely that a baby is fully conscious _after_ birth. We tend to imagine the brain being fully formed at birth and it is only a matter of laying down memories but that is not the case. Many structures thought to be necessary for self-awareness and memory are still forming months or more after birth. And the connections between neurons are not myelinated, which means it is unlikely that sensory input and thoughts could be brought together in the way that seems necessary to experience a unified consciousness. Even if the brain were fully-formed, it’s possible that self-awareness must at least partially be _learned_. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/7 "2012-03-30T14:51:44Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > if you asked me about said first memory when I was say 16 months, I probably would have said “Big orange tiger in sky!” Sounds like an induced memory to me. Tigers don’t live in the sky. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/8 "2012-03-30T14:54:45Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > These are very interesting if true. It has never been proven that an adult has recalled an event directly that happened to them before the age of 2. And there is discussion about whether the threshold is actually at 3. > Then between 3-5 most people have one or two patchy memories before our late childhood where we gradually become able to create memories as effectively as adults do. I’m not sure how it _can_ be proven. I’ve got memories including some relating to when I was teething (I complained that Marmite was making my teeth itch) that _must_ be before the age of 3, because when I was that age, our whole family moved abroad for several years - and the context of the memory (in particular, the table I was sitting at when I made the complaint) did not exist after I was that age. But it can always be argued that I’m not _directly_ remembering the event - I’m _remembering remembering it_. Honestly, I don’t think there’s any difference - when I remember seeing a red chair, there isn’t an actual chair being created inside my head. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/9 "2012-03-30T15:04:48Z")
I recall reading about researchers who did the following experiment: A number of pregnant women were exposed to certain specific musical recordings over the course of their pregnancy. When the babies were several months old, they were exposed to this same music, and other music as well. The researchers found that the babies reacted differently to the music that was played prior to birth than to the new music. Their conclusion was that the old music was familiar to those babies, and that they must have formed some sort of awareness and memory of it while still not-yet-born. Sorry I don’t have any details with which to look up a citation. But even if my memory is totally wrong, it seems like this is the sort of experiment one COULD perform to answer the OP’s question. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/10 "2012-03-30T15:19:17Z")
Another problem: define consciousness, and find an objective way to test for it in a creature that cannot use language. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/11 "2012-03-30T15:29:37Z")
I’m not really asking about memory per se, just about consciousness. Obviously an infant is conscious, regardless of whether anything is retained as “memory.” You don’t have to ask it what it remembers, in order to ascertain whether it’s conscious. The experiment that **Keeve** is referring to is more relevant to what I’m asking. And I’m wondering whether this can be tested in various stages of the fetus’ development. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/12 "2012-03-30T15:43:11Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > But it can always be argued that I’m not _directly_ remembering the event - I’m _remembering remembering it_. There’s the rub. Even if your memories correspond with verifiable events, you can never prove that you aren’t remembering what you imagined when someone told you about it. Memory is a weird thing. I’ve always had a great memory — for my experiences, for facts and trivia, for poems and speeches, etc. But one of my most vivid memories was when I was watching golf on TV, and Tiger Woods made his famous “better than most” 60-foot putt on 17 at TPC Sawgrass, and I yelled at my dad, who was in the kitchen, to hurry up and come back to the living room so he could see the replay. They play a clip of that putt fairly often on the Golf Channel, which I watch all the time, and for several years, every time they played it, I thought of when I saw it “live” and yelled for my dad to watch it, and how that was one of the last times I saw him before he died suddenly of a heart attack. Only problem, a couple years ago I looked it up, and found that it occurred in March of 2001. And my dad died in February of 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/13 "2012-03-30T15:44:39Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > I recall reading about researchers who did the following experiment: A number of pregnant women were exposed to certain specific musical recordings over the course of their pregnancy. When the babies were several months old, they were exposed to this same music, and other music as well. The researchers found that the babies reacted differently to the music that was played prior to birth than to the new music. Their conclusion was that the old music was familiar to those babies, and that they must have formed some sort of awareness and memory of it while still not-yet-born. > > Sorry I don’t have any details with which to look up a citation. But even if my memory is totally wrong, it seems like this is the sort of experiment one COULD perform to answer the OP’s question. Could, possibly. But it seems to me to more directly address the question of whether the fetus has a functioning brain which could be imprinted. That is distinct from the question of consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/14 "2012-03-30T15:45:01Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Obviously an infant is conscious, regardless of whether anything is retained as “memory.” How is it obvious? And by what definition of consciousness? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/15 "2012-03-30T15:50:00Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m not sure how it _can_ be proven. > … > it can always be argued that I’m not _directly_ remembering the event - I’m _remembering remembering it_. Well I read a cohort study where they gave very young children vivid memories and quizzed them the next day then six years later. They seemed to control quite well for factors like the parent repeating the event to the child but I can’t find the study right now. So I think it _could_ in theory be proven but the kind of study required hasn’t been done and it could take, say, 16 years to do. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/16 "2012-03-30T15:50:34Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > These are very interesting if true. It has never been proven that an adult has recalled an event directly that happened to them before the age of 2. Here is my first memory: _Across from our apartment building was a botanical garden with a greenhouse. Between the sidewalk and the greenhouse was a pond that contained very large goldfish. There was a path that crossed the pond. I am sitting in an old brown wicker stroller. Some of the wicker is worn, and pieces of it are sticking out. I am being pushed across the path, and am looking from side to side, at the goldfish. We then enter the greenhouse._ We moved from that apartment building before my first birthday, and never returned. Years later, as an adult, I told my mother and aunt about this memory, and they confirmed all the details, including the hand-me-down stroller . . . which was trashed when we moved, so I never saw it again. They also verified that no one would have photographed that scene or told me about it later. So if that isn’t an actual memory, what other explanation could there be? I’m open to suggestions, because I find this just as astounding as you do. ---
**Author:** ![barbararappele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@barbararappele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbararappele)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/17 "2012-03-30T15:53:51Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Do we know how consciousness grows in a developing fetus? Does it parallel the consciousness of various animal species? And the big question: How does the first “spark” of awareness happen, from something that previously had none? > > Or don’t we even know enough about our own adult consciousness to answer these questions? I tend to believe in consciousness, however I think this is a similar question to religion, you believe or you don’t. This can not be proven or disproven at this time. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/18 "2012-03-30T15:54:04Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I’m not really asking about memory per se, just about consciousness. Obviously an infant is conscious, regardless of whether anything is retained as “memory.” You don’t have to ask it what it remembers, in order to ascertain whether it’s conscious. The experiment that **Keeve** is referring to is more relevant to what I’m asking. And I’m wondering whether this can be tested in various stages of the fetus’ development. What you’re looking for is information on fetal brain waves development since brain waves are what prove a person is conscious rather than in a coma. The hard part will be finding an unbiased source not related to pro-life and pro-choice arguments. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/19 "2012-03-30T15:55:04Z")
Google says babies in the womb are in one of two sleep states based on EEG and data from other animals, etc. (Scientific American article) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267/20 "2012-03-30T15:55:29Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > But you don’t remember whether or not you were conscious in the womb. If you did, you wouldn’t need to ask this question. Well, it was kinda dark at the time. And the flashlight wasn’t working cuz mom was using the batteries for something else. 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-in-the-womb/617267.md?page=2)