# Consciousness...Part Two! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240 "2015-01-19T01:17:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/1 "2015-01-19T01:17:24Z")
Apparently some mods feel a conversation has a shelf life. That’s too bad, because if it’s truly a great debate, then the subject ought to be timeless. There were some really great ideas in the What Is Consciousness thread I started last summer, and now there is no easy way to connect to them. Oh well. This is a thread about what does it mean to be conscious? Is it a trait particular to humans, or do animals have it too? How do we know? Can consciousness be measured, it is it a purely subjective experience? How do you know you’re conscious right now? Are you conscious when you dream? Can you be awake and unconscious at the same time? These kinds if questions. All ideas are welcome. Please be respectful. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/2 "2015-01-19T01:25:32Z")
Not really so hard. [What is Consciousness?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=731557) ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/3 "2015-01-19T01:45:14Z")
Thanks Jonathan; I appreciate that. But how do you quote other threads? I’m a noob. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/4 "2015-01-19T02:46:36Z")
From Trinopus in the previous thread: > [@](#): > > Well, “reality is a lot less real” than we perceive it to be – that’s been true since the discovery of the nucleus of the atom. That solid metal teaspoon you use to stir your coffee is an airy, light, hollow confection, 99% empty space. A cloud of steam is “more solid.” > The comforting thing about quantum weirdness is that it (usually) occurs on a scale we can’t perceive. Imagine if superposition of particles occurred at the level of, say, billiard balls! “Didja sink that five-ball?” “Yes…and no.” > Another weird effect is that consciousness seems to require a bit of time to generate. We’re always about a tenth of a second behind reality. This isn’t just the amount of time it takes for our nerves to tell our muscles to act – the familiar demonstration of dropping a dollar bill between your thumb and forefinger – but the actual functioning of consciousness itself. We can never be conscious of events happening “now,” only of events that happened around 1/10 second ago. > If you’re very studious and good at self-observation, you can sometimes even perceive this effect. Find yourself startled some day. Say, you’re reading quietly in your comfy chair, and, outside, there’s a loud, sudden bang. Neighbor kids with firecrackers. You might actually be able to perceive your body’s reaction to this – your ear registers the noise, and your shoulder muscles tense up – and only 1/10 second later do you consciously realize, “I hear a loud bang!” > (I’ve had the same effect when stubbing my toe on a chair-leg. My body is sending nerve-signals all up and down my spine, but my conscious awareness of what has happened takes a little time to come together.) Sounds like perhaps there is a time lag between the actual event and when our mind becomes conscious of it. Maybe we are on auto-pilot much of the time in a state of semi-consciousness. I can drive for ten minutes thinking about something else, obey all the traffic signals and signs and speed limits, but have no conscious recollection of the last twenty blocks. Was I unconscious? Was my consciousness split? Interesting to ponder… ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/5 "2015-01-19T03:12:25Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I can drive for ten minutes thinking about something else, obey all the traffic signals and signs and speed limits, but have no conscious recollection of the last twenty blocks. Was I unconscious? Was my consciousness split? Interesting to ponder… And you arrive at your destination, safe and sound, with no recollection of the last twenty blocks. It is, as if somebody said, we will dedicate this part of the brain to driving the car. And the other part(s) of the brain may visit other planets, or go where they need to go. Should there be an event out of the ordinary in the travel, the other parts of the brain will respond. Maybe that somebody is me, but I am not conscious of the delegation of services to the brain. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/6 "2015-01-19T03:44:08Z")
Exactly, like we’re on autopilot. Like important responsibilities are being handled…by some other consciousness until we need to step in. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/7 "2015-01-19T04:42:10Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Exactly, like we’re on autopilot. Like important responsibilities are being handled…by some other consciousness until we need to step in. Weird. The 1950s comic Lord Buckley had a bit called “Subconscious Mind” about this very thing. [Here is a link.](http://www.last.fm/music/Lord+Buckley/_/Subconscious+Mind) Seems to me that consciousness is when we monitor our thoughts and think about what we are thinking. I can write programs, solve plotting problems, do word puzzles in my subconscious, where the answer pops up and I have no idea of how I did it. The conscious part of our minds might not be any smarter than the subconscious part. My old border collie mix was a genius, who could plan ahead and do some abstract reasoning. But I never saw any indication that he was conscious. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/8 "2015-01-19T05:37:54Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The 1950s comic Lord Buckley had a bit called “Subconscious Mind” about this very thing. [Here is a link.](http://www.last.fm/music/Lord+Buckley/_/Subconscious+Mind) > Seems to me that consciousness is when we monitor our thoughts and think about what we are thinking. I can write programs, solve plotting problems, do word puzzles in my subconscious, where the answer pops up and I have no idea of how I did it. The conscious part of our minds might not be any smarter than the subconscious part. > > My old border collie mix was a genius, who could plan ahead and do some abstract reasoning. But I never saw any indication that he was conscious. I’m guessing you’re old border collie mix sucked at word puzzles, then? 😉 But seriously, I’m not sure that animals don’t possess some kind of consciousness. Is my cat aware she’s a cat? She appears to think she’s queen of the household, but she still depends on us to feed her. Animals don’t possess language the same way we do, but they certainly have some language skills that they use to communicate. I do wonder whether we assume too much that language acquisition is the big identifier for consciousness; after all, if we can’t describe what we’re thinking, how do we know we’re even thinking? And on it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/9 "2015-01-19T20:42:23Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I’m guessing you’re old border collie mix sucked at word puzzles, then? 😉 But seriously, I’m not sure that animals don’t possess some kind of consciousness. Is my cat aware she’s a cat? She appears to think she’s queen of the household, but she still depends on us to feed her. Animals don’t possess language the same way we do, but they certainly have some language skills that they use to communicate. I do wonder whether we assume too much that language acquisition is the big identifier for consciousness; after all, if we can’t describe what we’re thinking, how do we know we’re even thinking? And on it goes. He had great language skills. And he was a great communicator, inventing ways of telling us what he wanted. But as far as I could tell he had no self-awareness. We tried the mirror test several times. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/10 "2015-01-20T04:40:31Z")
I think I’ve failed the mirror test on occasion. My pets are certainly aware of when they’re hungry, and when they’re being ignored. My cat is acutely aware of exactly how much inertia is required to land on the ledge and not overshoot to the sixteen foot drop on the other side. The pets certainly know where home is, which must be at least part self awareness. But I’m not sure all of these qualities are sufficient to establish consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/11 "2015-01-20T05:27:35Z")
I vote for animals being conscious. Dogs, especially, duplicate so many of our human cognitive functions – they have many of the same emotions – they even have a sense of humor! – I’m pretty sure that, whatever consciousness is, dogs have it. Cats probably also; it’s harder to tell, as they aren’t as demonstrative. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/12 "2015-01-20T05:49:23Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I think I’ve failed the mirror test on occasion. My pets are certainly aware of when they’re hungry, and when they’re being ignored. My cat is acutely aware of exactly how much inertia is required to land on the ledge and not overshoot to the sixteen foot drop on the other side. The pets certainly know where home is, which must be at least part self awareness. But I’m not sure all of these qualities are sufficient to establish consciousness. Intelligence is not self-awareness. The only time we examine our directions is when we get lost. Finding our way home, or to our office, automatically shows that this skill has moved into the subconscious where we don’t even have to think about it any more. Ditto getting hungry - we get hungry for lunch or dinner without looking at the clock, right? Your cat’s knowledge of inertia is matched by the masterful knowledge of physics and trajectories shown by anyone who catches a fly ball. Don’t sell the intelligence of our subconscious short. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/13 "2015-01-20T07:12:27Z")
I imagine there’s a great deal of knowledge that moves from the conscious to the sub-conscious as we learn to master certain skills. Take tying a show or brushing your teeth—at one time for tricky skills when you’re still a toddler. I think another is musical skills; I have been playing piano now for about forty-five years and literally never think about which fingers to use to play a chord. I just reach for it and it’s there. Even chord progressions I try not to consciously think about and instead just feel the music—unless I have to shout out the changes to someone else who isn’t quite “hearing” it. If J stop and explain how I play music it really occurs to me how many hundreds of smaller skill sets I’ve learned along the way to get to this point. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/14 "2015-01-20T08:03:35Z")
Part two? You mean to say you _didn’t_ solve the problem of consciousness in the last thread? One thing I’d say though is once again the discussion has mostly focused on awareness; as though it just means the opposite of unconscious. But for me, the more interesting problems are the hard problem: how it is possible for us to have subjective experiences of red, pain etc, and personal identity; e.g. the transporter problem and when is a conscious entity the same instance of consciousness? Anyway, let’s hope we get all these wrapped up without need for a third thread. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/15 "2015-01-20T09:40:23Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Thanks Jonathan; I appreciate that. But how do you quote other threads? I’m a noob. One way is to peruse the other thread, clicking “+” instead of “Quote.” (“+” (multi-quote) should be located just to the right of “Quote.”) Then come to this thread, click Reply _and remember to click “Quote these posts as well,” at the bottom where it prompts “You have selected 3 posts that are not part of this thread.”_ I’d appreciate it if you did quote the best-of-thread. The topic interests me but I didn’t follow after thread deviated from my (unposted) advice: whatever you think of his speculations, Julian Jaynes does a good job of clarifying “subjective consciousness” in his book. I’d use his discussion as a starting point, and was disappointed no one did. > [@Biffster](#): > > I imagine there’s a great deal of knowledge that moves from the conscious to the sub-conscious as we learn to master certain skills. Tigers, for example, have _huge_ skills, yet were never conscious at all (?) when they were learning those skills. [semi-humorous off-topic anecdote] > [@Biffster](#): > > I think I’ve failed the mirror test on occasion. Several years ago I was in a department store and thought “Oh! there’s a scrufty aging American-looking guy.” It took me several hundred milliseconds before I realized two mirrors had aliogned to catch my own reflection. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/16 "2015-01-20T16:58:54Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I vote for animals being conscious. Me too. And I vote for other humans besides just me being conscious. I hope that seems silly - the question of whether other animals are conscious are not to me seems just as silly as questioning whether other humans are conscious. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/17 "2015-01-21T00:38:29Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Me too. And I vote for other humans besides just me being conscious. > > I hope that seems silly - the question of whether other animals are conscious are not to me seems just as silly as questioning whether other humans are conscious. When I was a kid I’d sometimes wonder if this whole universe was just an experiment set up to measure my responses. Now that’s what I call early signs of narcissism. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/18 "2015-01-21T00:42:03Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Part two? You mean to say you _didn’t_ solve the problem of consciousness in the last thread? > > One thing I’d say though is once again the discussion has mostly focused on awareness; as though it just means the opposite of unconscious. But for me, the more interesting problems are the hard problem: how it is possible for us to have subjective experiences of red, pain etc, and personal identity; e.g. the transporter problem and when is a conscious entity the same instance of consciousness? > > Anyway, let’s hope we get all these wrapped up without need for a third thread. Good point. As long a there’s some kind of discussion going on, there should be no need to kill it. Have you ever read Software by Rudy Rucker, in which an individual’s consciousness can be transferred to a new body, even a machine, to avoid death. Seems to me Anderson had become an ice cream truck by the end of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/19 "2015-01-21T00:44:31Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > One way is to peruse the other thread, clicking “+” instead of “Quote.” (“+” (multi-quote) should be located just to the right of “Quote.”) Then come to this thread, click Reply _and remember to click “Quote these posts as well,” at the bottom where it prompts “You have selected 3 posts that are not part of this thread.”_ > > I’d appreciate it if you did quote the best-of-thread. The topic interests me but I didn’t follow after thread deviated from my (unposted) advice: whatever you think of his speculations, Julian Jaynes does a good job of clarifying “subjective consciousness” in his book. I’d use his discussion as a starting point, and was disappointed no one did. > > Tigers, for example, have _huge_ skills, yet were never conscious at all (?) when they were learning those skills. > > [semi-humorous off-topic anecdote] > > Several years ago I was in a department store and thought “Oh! there’s a scrufty aging American-looking guy.” It took me several hundred milliseconds before I realized two mirrors had aliogned to catch my own reflection. :smack: Ha! I get that double take sometimes. I’ll look into this multi-quite thing you mention. There were some really good ideas in the last thread that were just getting started before the plug was pulled. The mods have to realize that philosophical discussions don’t always follow hard and fast timelines. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240/20 "2015-01-21T02:18:26Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > When I was a kid I’d sometimes wonder if this whole universe was just an experiment set up to measure my responses. Now that’s what I call early signs of narcissism. Anyone who doesn’t explore solipsism when a teenager has no soul. Anyone who is still exploring it when in middle age has no brain. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consciousness-part-two/710240.md?page=2)