# Consent to sex while unconscious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576 "2011-05-28T16:30:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/81 "2011-05-29T02:55:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes, choking somebody into unconsciousness is just like hockey. What about MMA, or boxing, where the object is to cause unconciousness? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/82 "2011-05-29T02:56:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes, choking somebody into unconsciousness is just like hockey. Well of course the intent was not to choke her unconscious. The intent was to stop just short of that, with the goal of enhancing pleasure. So they screwed up and she blacked out. If they’d screwed up and been unlucky, she might have died, it’s true. Slip and fall on your ass and get unlucky playing hockey and someone might die too. [(Cite)](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9046546) So yeah, from a public policy standpoint, erotic asphyxiation is just about like playing hockey. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/83 "2011-05-29T04:04:17Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Sorry - pet rant of mine. Mention affirmative consent and everyone immediately thinks of Antioch College. While ignoring of course that Antioch’s policy in this area is massively popular with the students there. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes, choking somebody into unconsciousness is just like hockey. Actually, hockey, football, and boxing leave a large percentage of its participants with lifelong disabilities, far more in absolute numbers than sexual choking. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/84 "2011-05-29T04:09:59Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This may be true by the law, but surely prior affirmative consent should be considered better than the fact that they simply didn’t say no. Which is why I have consistently suggested a movement to an affirmative consent standard. But that scares people because of the idea that one should ask someone before fucking them if they actually want to be fucked. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/85 "2011-05-29T04:15:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What about MMA, or boxing, where the object is to cause unconciousness? The bottom line is we treat sex differently to other things. In certain other areas, we require affirmative consent to permit actions that would otherwise be assault - contact sports, surgery etc. But that isn’t the legal case with sex. I’d support a move to an affirmative consent standard in sex generally. But we aren’t there yet. For some reason people push back at treating sex like boxing or surgery - until it comes to a situation where they see certain benefits. So pick one or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/86 "2011-05-29T04:49:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say anything about BDSM. I said people who _want to be choked unconscious_ are mentally ill. Not people that are into BDSM. So then, to be clear you think that WhyNot is mentally ill?:dubious: Sorry, but you’re no different than people who think that men who enjoy sucking on penises or enjoy having them shoved in their rectums are mentally ill. In fact, until a few decades ago, the American Psychiatric Association IIRC, classified being gay as a mental illness. Anyway, this isn’t Iran, you’re not a Marjah, and you don’t get to tell adults who they can have sexual relations with and how they may engage in it. Yes, getting beaten up or choked isn’t my cup of tea, but many people, both men and women, really enjoy it. Intense physical exercise is also extremely painful, but I’m sure you don’t believe that people who run in marathons are mentally ill and that the police should step in to prevent them from running in them. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/87 "2011-05-29T06:10:20Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Rape law requires an absence of non-consent rather than affirmative consent. Given that such an expression of non-consent is impossible when unconscious, the law includes being unable to give non-consent as an expression of non-consent. > > Consent can also be revoked at any time - if a man is having consensual sex with a woman and she tells him in the middle to stop, continuing is rape. Once again, if the person is unconscious, the consent cannot be revoked. A person saying “you can do anything you want to me for the next year” does not have any legal standing as to consent. I don’t understand what absence of non-consent means. Shouldn’t it be presence of non-consent or absence of affirmative consent? To me absence of non-consent means the woman never said no and never said to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/88 "2011-05-29T06:41:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then, to be clear you think that WhyNot is mentally ill?:dubious: **Whynot** didn’t say she wants to be choked unconscious, dipshit. > [@](#): > > Sorry, but you’re no different than people who think that men who enjoy sucking on penises or enjoy having them shoved in their rectums are mentally ill. > > In fact, until a few decades ago, the American Psychiatric Association IIRC, classified being gay as a mental illness. You’re a fucking moron, dude. Choking a person into unconsciousness is not a sexual act. If you think it is, then you’re a sick fuck I want no association with. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/89 "2011-05-29T06:47:23Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I don’t understand what absence of non-consent means. Shouldn’t it be presence of non-consent or absence of affirmative consent? > > To me absence of non-consent means the woman never said no and never said to stop. What I meant was under (most) current rape laws, sex is considered consensual in the absence of an expression of non-consent. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/90 "2011-05-29T06:52:02Z")
That assumes an ability to _deny_ consent. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/91 "2011-05-29T06:52:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > **Dio** , do you actually read the posts you reply to? Or for that matter the OP of this thread? There is no issue with the choking. It’s not illegal, it shouldn’t be illegal, and it’s not what this guy has been done for. Are you sure on that? I agree it isn’t what he has been convicted of and I’d agree it probably shouldn’t be illegal. But I don’t think you’re right that it isn’t illegal. It certainly would be in many US jurisdictions. Unlikely to be prosecuted, but it could be. Ask the people convicted of assault with a weapon for consensual spanking with wooden spoons (in NY state IIRC). ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/92 "2011-05-29T06:54:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That assumes an ability to _deny_ consent. Which is what I’ve said about 8 times. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/93 "2011-05-29T06:59:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’re a fucking moron, dude. Choking a person into unconsciousness is not a sexual act. If you think it is, then you’re a sick fuck I want no association with. Does this means we aren’t friends? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/94 "2011-05-29T07:56:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > **Whynot** didn’t say she wants to be choked unconscious, dipshit. > > You’re a fucking moron, dude. Choking a person into unconsciousness is not a sexual act. If you think it is, then you’re a sick fuck I want no association with. I just realized I posted this in the GD thread instead of the Pit thread. I thought I was in the Pit thread when I posted it. My apologies to **Ibn** and to the mods. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/95 "2011-05-29T09:36:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For those who think that choking a woman unconscious is some kind of normal, healthy foreplay, what if she dies (a real possibility)? Has the strangler committed a crime, or are satisfied if he just says she wanted it? Yes, it’s a very unwise practice, but in this case we have her, still alive, quite happily saying that she consented in advance, not just a corpse and someone with an implausible excuse. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/96 "2011-05-29T09:40:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes, choking somebody into unconsciousness is just like hockey. No-one gets a sexual thrill from hockey. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/97 "2011-05-29T09:43:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You make this accusation on the basis of what eveidence? What exactly is she lying about? The husband in this case hasn’t denied any of the facts. > > The husband also has a history of domestic violence against this woman. She originally lied by saying the post-unconsciousness sex was without consent, but later recanted and the legal judgement by the court says that she now claims she lied as part of a custody dispute. Sex during unconsciousness didn’t form part of her original complaint. “Having a dildo rammed up her ass” while unconscious isn’t something she originally complained about, she said the sex they had after she regained consciousness was against her will, an accusation which she later admitted was a lie. And his criminal history, he’s a “career criminal”, doesn’t seem to include any actual acts of violence against the person. He has three domestic violence convictions, one for insults, one “trying” to hit someone, one for kicking a door in, according to the article. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/98 "2011-05-29T10:35:33Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Are you sure on that? I agree it isn’t what he has been convicted of and I’d agree it probably shouldn’t be illegal. But I don’t think you’re right that it isn’t illegal. It certainly would be in many US jurisdictions. Unlikely to be prosecuted, but it could be. Ask the people convicted of assault with a weapon for consensual spanking with wooden spoons (in NY state IIRC). I’m in the UK, so my knowledge is much greater about the law here, but in most places BDSM practices are legal as long as they are consensual, and the intent is not to harm (in the sense of permanent physical damage). My understanding of the choking in this case is that unconsciousness was not the aim, sexual pleasure was, and that the unconsciousness was and accepted but unintended consequence. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/99 "2011-05-29T10:37:53Z")
The problem with a witness recanting a rape or abuse charge is that quite frequently, it actually WAS rape, but the victim has had pressure put on her to recant. Maybe this particular incident was not rape, but then again, maybe it was and she was just not going to bring charges until the custody issue was a problem. And maybe she’s afraid that his temper is going to flare again, even if he hasn’t been convicted of violence against a person doesn’t mean that he isn’t violent, just that he hasn’t been charged and convicted. A lot of times, victims of domestic violence DON’T press charges when they should. Probably nobody really knows what happened in that case, except for the couiple involved, and nobody CAN know, because we don’t have a time machine to go back and watch. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576/100 "2011-05-29T12:01:50Z")
But he had been convicted of domestic violence, and twice against this particular woman, which rather implies that she wasn’t too terrified to go to the police and press charges against him, rather than implying that there may have been proper violence against her person which she was too intimidated to do anything about. And of course she accused him of rape too. Anyway the recantation was accepted by the court and that’s what’s important for this judgment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/consent-to-sex-while-unconscious/583576.md?page=6)