# Conservatism results in ignorance. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462 "2017-07-03T20:32:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/41 "2017-07-06T13:52:13Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Intertwined cause and effect. Ignorance causes the kind of conservatism being discussed, and furthers the ignorance to maintain it. Totally different from liberalism which furthers ignorance to maintain itself and then causes more ignorance. So everyone is ignorant then? Just different flavors of ignorant? Is anyone not considered ignorant in your view? Just yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/42 "2017-07-06T14:21:41Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You said that angrily opposing discrimination if you aren’t part of the group being discriminated against is _worse_ than supporting the party that is actually doing the discriminating. We are exploring that statement to try to illuminate how wrong it is. And like I said, it all depends on a range of factors. Take the idea of “support” - that has a range of elements from “actually I don’t give a shit since it doesn’t affect me, so I’m not going to work against it” all the way through to “active lobbying and financial support in favour of it”. Angrily doing anything angrily is, IMHO, worse than doing anything calmly. What’s that Ancient Greek aphorism - “Those the Gods wish to destory, they first make angry”, I believe? > [@](#): > > Ok well it’s been explained to you now, and its a perfect example to show you that even peaceful, quiet protest is not acceptable to some if it goes against their views and ideology. They’ll still conflate it with riots and destruction because its easier for them to dismiss the whole thing then rather than actually listening and trying to understand what is being said. Even if that’s the case, it’s not the point I was making before - ie, there is actually a middle ground on these issues. I can’t speak for anyone else, but the angrier and more worked up someone is over an issue, the less likely I am to support them or want to help them with said issue. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/43 "2017-07-06T14:33:17Z")
You don’t think there are any issues that were ever worth being angry over? Slavery? Civil Rights? Vietnam? The Holocaust? Sounds like a very privileged viewpoint to me. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/44 "2017-07-06T15:19:06Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > So everyone is ignorant then? Just different flavors of ignorant? > > Is anyone not considered ignorant in your view? Just yourself? So everyone is either a conservative or a liberal? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/45 "2017-07-06T15:21:39Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So everyone is either a conservative or a liberal? So anyone that pays attention to politics and identifies with one of the two sides in our current system are ignorant? Can you clarify who it is that you consider not to be ignorant? I asked once already. You could clarify this whole confusion by just answering that question. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/46 "2017-07-06T15:23:32Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > What’s that Ancient Greek aphorism - “Those the Gods wish to destory, they first make angry”, I believe? The first attested version is Roman, by [Publilius Syrus](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Publilius_Syrus): ‘Whom Fortune wishes to destroy she first makes mad.’ > [@](#): > > Stultum facit fortuna, quem vult perdere. > Whom Fortune wishes to destroy she first makes mad. > Maxim 911; one of the most famous renditions of the ancient Greek proverb (which is anonymous and dates to the 5th century BCE or earlier). The provenance of the proverb and its English versions is at Wikiquote’s Euripides page, under the heading “Misattributed”. The Greeks had the concept of ath - overweening pride. Pride as in the pride that goeth before a fall. (q.v. Arachne challenging the gods.) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/47 "2017-07-06T15:36:01Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > So anyone that pays attention to politics and identifies with one of the two sides in our current system are ignorant? > > Can you clarify who it is that you consider not to be ignorant? I asked once already. You could clarify this whole confusion by just answering that question. You continue to ask loaded questions. I stated that two ideologies, conservatism and liberalism depend on and promote ignorance. What part confuses you? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/48 "2017-07-06T15:41:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You continue to ask loaded questions. I stated that two ideologies, conservatism and liberalism depend on and promote ignorance. What part confuses you? The part where you refuse to answer the question of who it is that you do not consider ignorant. There must be a reason that you will not answer that question. Also it is a straightforward question, there is nothing loaded about it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/49 "2017-07-06T15:58:53Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > The part where you refuse to answer the question of who it is that you do not consider ignorant. > > There must be a reason that you will not answer that question. Also it is a straightforward question, there is nothing loaded about it. The list of people I do not consider ignorant would be too long to list here, and incomplete since I don’t know that many people. Your questions are loaded because they were predicated with the assumption that everybody is either liberal or conservative, plus something irrelevant about paying attention to politics. I still don’t understand your confusion or agitation, my only guess is that you believe ideologies are not philosophical concepts but a list of people who subscribe to them. Otherwise I’m a bit baffled why you care who I consider ignorant or not. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/50 "2017-07-06T16:10:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The list of people I do not consider ignorant would be too long to list here, and incomplete since I don’t know that many people. Your questions are loaded because they were predicated with the assumption that everybody is either liberal or conservative, plus something irrelevant about paying attention to politics. I still don’t understand your confusion or agitation, my only guess is that you believe ideologies are not philosophical concepts but a list of people who subscribe to them. Otherwise I’m a bit baffled why you care who I consider ignorant or not. You are posting your views on a message board. I am asking questions about your statements both to better understand what you are saying and to maybe get you to reflect a little on the implications of your words. Why are you posting on a message board if you are uninterested in discussing the things you are saying? Wouldn’t a blog with the comments turned off be better for you? I guess that’s what is confusing, but no worries, we don’t have to discuss your viewpoints if you’d rather not. No big deal. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/51 "2017-07-06T16:26:03Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You are posting your views on a message board. I am asking questions about your statements both to better understand what you are saying and to maybe get you to reflect a little on the implications of your words. > > Why are you posting on a message board if you are uninterested in discussing the things you are saying? Wouldn’t a blog with the comments turned off be better for you? I guess that’s what is confusing, but no worries, we don’t have to discuss your viewpoints if you’d rather not. No big deal. If you are interested in my view points you could just ask about them instead of trying to form an argument unrelated to what I said. My viewpoint is that ideologies are for idiots. Solutions to problems are not found in fortune cookies. Conservatism and liberalism both, and in there many inconsistent, overlapping, and contradictory forms, are simply political methods for promoting people to act without critical thought, to avoid the complexities of decision making, considering the results of actions, and avoiding responsibility for those actions. In this country (and others) the back and forth between competing ideologies helps to prevent the extremist results of single ideology governance but still result in pendulum swinging reactions to problems that rarely, if ever, result in solutions. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/52 "2017-07-06T16:53:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ve got to ask for a cite on this. Who is out there ‘touting ignorance as a virtue’? No one explicitly says “ignorance is a virtue” but conservatives have gone to great lengths to place ideology ahead of any facts. - **Global Warming:** North Carolina, Florida and a few other states [barred officials from using the words “climate change” or “global warming”](https://www.vox.com/2015/3/10/8182513/florida-ban-climate-change). Never mind [overwhelming scientific consensus](https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/) that it is real. - **Abortion:** The conservative position on saving the unborn often does little to actually save the unborn. Anything from [making access to birth control more difficult](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/republican-war-birth-control-contraception/) to [opposing sex education in the schools](https://www.aclu.org/other/campaigns-undermine-sexuality-education-public-schools). All of which provably decrease unwanted pregnancies. - **Immigrants:** Worry that immigrants are more likely to be criminals is an [unfounded](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html) but persistent claim on the right. They are [not even taking our jobs](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/us/immigrants-arent-taking-americans-jobs-new-study-finds.html) as it also commonly claimed by the right. - **Taxes:** TEA Party means “Taxed Enough Already” Party. Are they taxed enough? [Federal income taxes are near historic lows](http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-income-taxes-on-middle-income-families-remain-near-historic-lows) yet to hear a TEA Partier tell it they are being crushed by taxes. - **Illegal Voting:** According to conservatives illegal voting was rampant. There is [no evidence](http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2017/jun/22/ainsley-earhardt/following-trump-voter-fraud-allegations-claim-57-m/) of that though. - **Liberal Elite:** Who are these people? Near as I can tell they are highly educated people who hold liberal ideals. Apparently that all live in Ivory Towers and are to be mistrusted. Why? Well, because they are liberal elite of course. What else needs to be said? :rolleyes: And so it goes… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/53 "2017-07-06T17:01:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > No one explicitly says “ignorance is a virtue” … Great! Sounds like we agree on this point. I wonder if **Gyrate** can put this fact ahead of his ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/54 "2017-07-06T17:11:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If you are interested in my view points you could just ask about them instead of trying to form an argument unrelated to what I said. I did ask you a question directly related to what you said, but you refused to answer, and still do. Currently we have two parties in this country that have a chance to actually govern and initiate policy. Unless that changes, calling both parties ignorant and going on as you just did about how neither of them can solve anything also does not solve anything. Its basically saying I’m smarter than the rest of you because I don’t consider myself on either side. I don’t see the point of it, or what you hope to achieve. 3rd parties aren’t going to do it, so how do you suggest we as a nation attempt to solve our problems outside of the political system? I see a lot of words in your last post but no actual solutions. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/55 "2017-07-06T17:26:31Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I did ask you a question directly related to what you said, but you refused to answer, and still do. > > Currently we have two parties in this country that have a chance to actually govern and initiate policy. Unless that changes, calling both parties ignorant and going on as you just did about how neither of them can solve anything also does not solve anything. Its basically saying I’m smarter than the rest of you because I don’t consider myself on either side. I don’t see the point of it, or what you hope to achieve. 3rd parties aren’t going to do it, so how do you suggest we as a nation attempt to solve our problems outside of the political system? I see a lot of words in your last post but no actual solutions. Your responses continue to be incoherent. You now talk about political parties instead of ideologies, although there those are closely linked. I didn’t mention anything about 3rd parties either. I think it should be clear that I don’t believe in ideological solutions. I frankly can’t tell what direction you are taking at all. Do you believe ideologies lead to solutions? Is there some particular ideology you ascribe to? And why did my initial statement and the very clear responses I’ve given produce such angst for you? Is there something you have to say about the topic of this debate? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/56 "2017-07-06T17:34:06Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Your responses continue to be incoherent. You now talk about political parties instead of ideologies, although there those are closely linked. I didn’t mention anything about 3rd parties either. I think it should be clear that I don’t believe in ideological solutions. I frankly can’t tell what direction you are taking at all. Do you believe ideologies lead to solutions? Is there some particular ideology you ascribe to? And why did my initial statement and the very clear responses I’ve given produce such angst for you? > > Is there something you have to say about the topic of this debate? Not sure where you are seeing angst? Also you’ve still never answered my first question. You made a reference to it in one of your posts but it wasn’t really responsive. Ok let’s try this. What is your solution then? Getting on a soap box and saying both ideologies are ignorant is not a solution to anything as far as I’m aware. You don’t believe in ideological solutions, so what kind of solutions do you believe in? I’m really just trying to find some kind of practical application to what you say are your views. I’m not seeing it though. Lots of ranting about ideology, but zero proposed solutions so far. If you want to end this tangent though, that’s ok with me. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/57 "2017-07-06T18:12:23Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Not sure where you are seeing angst? Also you’ve still never answered my first question. You made a reference to it in one of your posts but it wasn’t really responsive. > > Ok let’s try this. What is your solution then? Getting on a soap box and saying both ideologies are ignorant is not a solution to anything as far as I’m aware. You don’t believe in ideological solutions, so what kind of solutions do you believe in? I’m really just trying to find some kind of practical application to what you say are your views. I’m not seeing it though. Lots of ranting about ideology, but zero proposed solutions so far. > > If you want to end this tangent though, that’s ok with me. I’m not doing the ranting. You asked some questions initially about who I considered ignorant. I doubt my answer will satisfy you, I consider everyone ignorant, including myself. Now you pose question with no specific topic, “What is your solution then?”. My solution to what? A slightly better question is about the kind of solutions I believe in, but again that will be unsatisfying to you, I believe in solutions to clearly identified problems where the solution can be shown through experience and reason to have beneficial results, and also have some means of measuring those results and changing directions if the desired result does not materialize. Now perhaps if you have some specific problem you’d like to discuss, or if you can express your own views on the general topic of political ideology we could have some kind of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/58 "2017-07-06T18:27:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Now you pose question with no specific topic, “What is your solution then?”. My solution to what? A slightly better question is about the kind of solutions I believe in Uh, I actually did ask you exactly that question in my previous post, which was number 56. Let me quote myself: > [@Airbeck](#): > > You don’t believe in ideological solutions, so what kind of solutions do you believe in? Also you are the one that first brought up the concept of solutions in post #51: > [@TriPolar](#): > > My viewpoint is that ideologies are for idiots. **Solutions** to problems are not found in fortune cookies. Conservatism and liberalism both, and in there many inconsistent, overlapping, and contradictory forms, are simply political methods for promoting people to act without critical thought, to avoid the complexities of decision making, considering the results of actions, and avoiding responsibility for those actions. In this country (and others) the back and forth between competing ideologies helps to prevent the extremist results of single ideology governance but still result in pendulum swinging reactions to problems that rarely, if ever, result in **solutions.** \*my bolding Now you are throwing the word “solutions” back at me? Why don’t _you_ tell _me_ what solutions you were referring to in this post. You used the word both at the beginning and the end of the paragraph, so I assume you meant something by it. Not sure why you are asking me what solutions when I was only responding to what you said. I was just trying to better understand your original statement about liberals and conservatives all being ignorant, or rather following ideologies that are based on ignorance. Now you say that you consider everyone ignorant, even yourself. Doesn’t that then render moot your entire original point, if everyone is indeed ignorant? Why single out ideologies then if it doesn’t matter whether you follow one or not? If everyone is ignorant, then whether you consider yourself conservative or liberal should not make any difference. Do you see why I’m trying to unpack that original claim? It doesn’t hold water. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/59 "2017-07-06T18:34:50Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Uh, I actually did ask you exactly that question in my previous post, which was number 56. Let me quote myself: > > Also you are the one that first brought up the concept of solutions in post #51: > \*my bolding > > Now you are throwing the word “solutions” back at me? Why don’t _you_ tell _me_ what solutions you were referring to in this post. You used the word both at the beginning and the end of the paragraph, so I assume you meant something by it. Not sure why you are asking me what solutions when I was only responding to what you said. > > I was just trying to better understand your original statement about liberals and conservatives all being ignorant, or rather following ideologies that are based on ignorance. Now you say that you consider everyone ignorant, even yourself. Doesn’t that then render moot your entire original point, if everyone is indeed ignorant? Why single out ideologies then if it doesn’t matter whether you follow one or not? If everyone is ignorant, then whether you consider yourself conservative or liberal should not make any difference. Do you see why I’m trying to unpack that original claim? It doesn’t hold water. Nice try but you are still can’t make logical connections. Everyone can be ignorant, everyone is ignorant, but that has nothing to do with political ideologies promoting ignorance. Apparently you can’t understand, or are just deliberately trying to paint everything in black and white terms to promote your unstated argument. I’ve answered your irrelevant questions, you keep trying to reform my statements into some point you want to make but don’t express. It’s been an interesting exerices to see if you have any substance or are simply trying to engage in a Monty Python type argument. Better luck next time. Enjoy your relatively great amount of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462/60 "2017-07-06T18:37:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Nice try but you are still can’t make logical connections. Everyone can be ignorant, everyone is ignorant, but that has nothing to do with political ideologies promoting ignorance. Apparently you can’t understand, or are just deliberately trying to paint everything in black and white terms to promote your unstated argument. I’ve answered your irrelevant questions, you keep trying to reform my statements into some point you want to make but don’t express. It’s been an interesting exerices to see if you have any substance or are simply trying to engage in a Monty Python type argument. Better luck next time. Enjoy your relatively great amount of ignorance. Again, I was simply trying to understand your original point. Asking questions is generally a good way to further one’s understanding, but I guess it requires both sides being willing to actually have a conversation. Thanks for all of the insults though. Really helpful in a great debate. Have a great one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatism-results-in-ignorance/790462.md?page=4)