# Conservative agenda in The Incredibles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506 "2004-12-12T22:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/41 "2004-12-13T04:32:41Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > [Another interesting take from a blogger more familiar than I with Rand’s writings and biography.](http://www.tblog.com/templates/index.php?bid=kurtmaddox&static=343349) Frozone’s three-hour radio address at the end is the dead giveaway, if you want my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/42 "2004-12-13T06:50:27Z")
I just read about half a dozen interviews with Bird so far, and here’s what it got me. In several interviews, Bird says the germ of The Incredibles idea is 12 years old and he started working with Pixar on it in 2000. All of which is a bit early if he wanted to bring in these themes about terrorists. > [@spoke-](#): > > And if you’ll note, both of the articles I linked acknowledged Edith Head, and proposed (with some evidence) that the Edna Mode character is an amalgam of Ayn Rand and Ms. Head. In [this interview](http://www.darkhorizons.com/news04/bird.php), asked about the inspiration for Enda, Bird says, "You know, she has come up, other people have mentioned Edith Head, and people have mentioned that she looks like Patricia Highsmith, you know, we just sit there and draw it and draw it over again. If you get The Art Of Incredibles book you will see some of our other attempts where she is fatter and older and thinner and we tried a lot of things and we arrived at that and then people make their own connections and you kind of go, ok, that is valid, that is valid too, yeah, I kind of like that, I also like that. " > [@](#): > > Edna’s lecture about capes is apparently especially funny to Objectivists who know that Ayn Rand wore a trademark cape (as did many of her imitative sycophants). I wonder what will happen the first time someone synchs up The Incredibles with Dark Side of the Moon. [Over here](http://movies.radiofree.com/interviews/theincre_brad_bird.shtml), we get this question: **What was the inspiration for the title characters?** “The goal was to make the family based on archetypes. If you’re going to have superheroes and it’s a family, what are the family archetypes? The dad is always expected to be strong, so I made him really strong. Moms are always pulled in a thousand different directions, so I had her stretch. Teenagers in general and teenage women in particular are self-conscious and kind of defensive when they’re going through that point between being a kid and being an adult, so they’re like, “Don’t look at me!” So she’s invisible and has force fields. 10 year old boys are hyperactive energy balls that ricochet off the walls, so I had him have super speed. And babies are unrealized potential. So that was kind of what drove me to do it that way.” Maybe he just won’t admit the truth. This has probably gone on past the edge of pointlessness. You know, I heard Mike Reiss (a Simpsons exec producer) give a speech a few weeks ago, and at one point he mentioned all of the books and essays that have started coming out about the show, like _The Gospel According to The Simpsons_. He said once in a while, he tries to read one of them, but he always gives up quickly because the things are so completely and totally wrong. I think that’s what happens when you try to read too much into things. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/43 "2004-12-13T07:50:47Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > [li]Evil trial lawyers bring down the super heroes.[/li] I always thought lawyers were universally disliked. > [@](#): > > [li]Our first villain is French.[/li] He was also competant and what isn’t funny about a mime named Bomb Voyage? > [@](#): > > [li]That whole theme of enforced mediocrity seemed very (Ayn) Randian. First, we see super heroes forced to be mediocre by government bureaucrats. Then we see Dash hounded by his mom into not using his super-speed in athletic events. Then we get the line “When everyone is special, no one is.” I felt like I was watching The Fountainhead for kids.[/li] Maybe, though I have to admit I don’t consider Ayn Rand to be all that conservative. > [@](#): > > [li]On the island, at the caves, Elastigirl tells Violet and Dash that the villains they are fighting are not like TV villains. They want to kill people. She then tells Violet that she [Violet] shouldn’t hold back from using her full power to fight these villains. (A message for America in the War on Terror?)[/li] Or a message that you’ve got to put in 100% when the brass tacks are down. > [@](#): > > [li]Speaking of killing, the villains in this film don’t get captured or de-fanged, as in typical childrens’ films. They get killed. In large numbers.[/list][/li] Which I applaud. I’m sick of children’s movies that have a lot of violent action only to end up with nobody getting hurt at the end. Good for The Incredibles for showing that there are consequences to their actions. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/44 "2004-12-13T08:00:09Z")
The “libertarian” theme in The Incredibles—what I saw of it, at least—just seemed more of a reflection of some themes I’ve been seeing in comics for a few years. You know, with the “common people” fearing and resenting superpowered people, even when the supers are honestly just trying to help people. (You see that a lot in the everyday Marvel universe. And in things like “Marvels” or “Dark Knight Returns,” you can see a backlash _against_ that kind of attitude.) So, maybe it’s more of a “modern comics” theme than an attempt push a political view. Or maybe it’s just a movie. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/45 "2004-12-13T08:02:07Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Ah. Found another quote from Elastigirl, warning her children: > > “Villains aren’t simply villains. They’re terrorists. They’ll kill you if they can.” Huh? I’m pretty darn sure that quote isn’t in the movie. The line you’re thinking of goes like– “Remember those villians from the shows you watched on Saturday morning TV? These guys aren’t like that. They won’t hesitate to kill you because you’re children.” Not one peep about terrorists, sorry. And while I don’t have a copy of the script to compare against, I’ll wager good money my recollection is closer to the celluloid (or the MPEG, in this case 😉 ). Really, watching conservatives trying to claim **The Incredibles** as a “red state” movie gets silly after a while. One critic insisted it had a Republican message just because it showed a family with _two_ parents! **Gasp!** :eek: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Skott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skott)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/46 "2004-12-13T08:45:57Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > I went into this movie with no foreknowledge of it, and no preconceived notions. You may not have had preconceived notions of the film, but certainly seem to have an overinflated desire to ascribe political motivations to nonpolitical situations. Is that a preconcieved notion? From what I’ve read [liberal intellectualism], Byrd based the film on his own life [Moore-style self-centered liberalism]/mid-life crisis, combined with his love of comics [Smith-style liberalism]. The fact that it’s a positive [conservative battery lobby], family-centric [conservative revisionists] film [standard liberal message forum], makes it simply [red state] that. Many of the themes present are almost standard in many comics/comic-based mediums. Saying that the film is conservative says more about you than the film. For example, let me show you just how liberal [liberal] this film is! > [@](#): > > Evil trial lawyers bring down the super heroes. So only conservatives are allowed to mock the “I-spilled-coffee-on-myself-where’s-the-nearest-deep-pocket?” mentality? It seems like a critique of American society overall, which is were liberals usually excel. > [@](#): > > Our first villain is French. (Did he surrender? I don’t recall… ;)) Liberals tend to be angry/disappointed about how silent (politically) most Americans are. Taking down a mime is a symbol of the liberal desire that everyone should have a voice. > [@](#): > > Then we see Dash hounded by his mom into not using his super-speed in athletic events. A very common theme in Superman/Smallville. There’s a difference between doing your best in a competition of a level playing field and using powers/steroids/nanites to beat out your competition. Liberals have always been against those who use their (cash) powers to beat down the normal individual. > [@](#): > > On the island, at the caves, Elastigirl tells Violet and Dash that the villains they are fighting are not like TV villains. They want to kill people. Seems like a natural explanation for kids who have only seen these type of battles in the comics. Usually, it’s the conservatives who are accused of hiding the truth from the nation, and it’s the job of the liberals to expose and enlighten people from their childish “I can do no wrong/I cannot die” mentality. > [@](#): > > She then tells Violet that she [Violet] shouldn’t hold back from using her full power to fight these villains. (A message for America in the War on Terror?) Doing everything you can to defend yourself and those you love? Sounds more like FDR than Bush to me. > [@](#): > > Speaking of killing, the villains in this film don’t get captured or de-fanged, as in typical childrens’ films. They get killed. In large numbers. Funny. Usually it’s the more conservative people who tend to want to censor the more grisly events in life, not liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Skott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skott)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/47 "2004-12-13T08:55:12Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > One critic insisted it had a Republican message just because it showed a family with _two_ parents! Well, the fact that they were of a different sex is what makes it a Republican Message. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/48 "2004-12-13T09:07:21Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > One critic insisted it had a Republican message just because it showed a family with _two_ parents! **Gasp!** :eek: 😉 I’ve heard some conseratives lament the fact that in many Cartoon movies, a kid usually only has one parent and it’s the mom. I don’t lament it but I have noticed it. ---
**Author:** ![Phantom\_Dennis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Phantom\_Dennis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phantom_Dennis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/49 "2004-12-13T09:34:46Z")
I definitely picked up an Objectivist vibe during the film, although I think at least some of it’s purely secondhand – the film is a tribute to golden- and silver-age comics, a genre that’s rife with Objectivist themes (Absolute good verses evil, individualistic “supermen” who single-handedly protect or threaten the masses). Plus, the movie was stylistically grounded in the architecture of the period: mid-century Modernism, which, as a result of _the Fountainhead_, will always be associated with Rand and Objectivism. If Bird did consciously inject some Objectivist themes into his movie, I salute him for it – I’m no disciple of Rand, but I think it’s cool when a film strives to be something more than simple entertainment and offers thoughtful, well-presented ideas, even if I don’t agree with them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/50 "2004-12-13T09:38:24Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Huh? I’m pretty darn sure that quote isn’t in the movie. The line you’re thinking of goes like– > > “Remember those villians from the shows you watched on Saturday morning TV? These guys aren’t like that. They won’t hesitate to kill you because you’re children.” Correctamundo. IMDb’s quotes aren’t always 100%, but this matches how I remember it (I saw it Tuesday): “Remember the bad guys on the shows you used to watch on Saturday mornings? Well, these guys aren’t like those guys. They won’t exercise restraint because you are children. They will kill you if they get the chance. Do not give them that chance.” ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/51 "2004-12-13T09:58:58Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Menocchio, The Iron Giant was based on a Ted Hughes story. Bird could not change the major story elements. You obviously haven’t read the book. They have similar elements in the beginning, but vastly differing middle and ending segments. _The Iron Man_ ends with the giant outwitting a planet-sized alien who’s come to destroy the Earth. Adam Reed, from one of your links, may be making the common mistake of seeing a hidden agenda where there is none. For example, he goes to great lengths to show how the design of costumes with fabrics that adapt to the wearer’s powers and without capes is somehow related to objectivist philosophy. What I saw was a wholesale lift of the capeless, adaptable fabric costumes designed by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby for the Fantastic Four in 1961 (make the uniforms blue with a big 4 instead of red with an !, and those _are_ FF uniforms), or the Broome / Infantino costume designed for the Flash. Another example: Reed sees the “Capes are out” speech as evidence that the movie is espousing an objectivist philosophy. I saw it as a reference to _Watchmen_, in which one hero eschews a cape because it’s impractical, and another is killed as a result of his wearing a cape, which in turn results in all heroes giving up on the idea altogether. Are these references to the comics I’ve read, or am I interpreting them this way because of the ideas I come to the movie with regarding superheroes and the comics from which they come ? Just because I see Fantastic Four uniforms in those that Edna designs doesn’t mean that that was the intent; I may be imposing my perceptions onto the material. Perhaps your libertarian/conservative deconstruction of _The Incredibles_ wasn’t actually there in it’s construction. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/52 "2004-12-13T12:14:29Z")
The theme in _The Incredibles_ is more or less Randian; I don’t think anyone seriously disagrees with this. Whether and to what extent this was intentional is debatable (and largely unknowable). The rest of the OP (which tries to link the movie to various modern conservative policies in the U.S.) seems, to me, a _huge_ stretch. **ITR champion** : > [@](#): > > Frozone’s three-hour radio address at the end is the dead giveaway, if you want my opinion. Hahahahaha! Apparently I’m the only one, but I thought that was hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/53 "2004-12-13T13:10:48Z")
I’d hesitate to say that the themes in The Incredibles is ‘Randian’. That’s giving a bit too much credit. It would be like saying that **anything** that espouses the theme of ‘The individual’ vs ‘The Group’ is by definition ‘Randian’. It’s possible to have similar themes without deriving them from Ayn Rand. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/54 "2004-12-13T13:42:17Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Why are you trying so hard to convince people that the movie had a conservative bent? Why are you and others trying so hard to convince people that it doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/55 "2004-12-13T15:14:21Z")
> [@Number Six](#): > > You obviously haven’t read [The Iron Man]. They have similar elements in the beginning, but vastly differing middle and ending segments. _The Iron Man_ ends with the giant outwitting a planet-sized alien who’s come to destroy the Earth… At any rate, I still do not see how The Iron Giant is supposed to be inconsistent with an objectivist worldview. The villain is a government bureaucrat, who brings a jack-booted army to bear against our heroes. Right in the groove of early-90s anti-government paranoia from the Right. Waco and Ruby Ridge and all that. (And yes, that anti-government paranoia had formerly been the property of the Left.) I didn’t go into The Incredibles looking for Randian themes. They jumped out at me. (And not me alone, apparently. See that NY Times review, for example.) It might be that it was obvious to me because I have several objectivist friends who have been spouting this stuff at me for many years. Now, once I caught wind of some Randian themes, I will grant that I may have started looking for other conservative elements. (Maybe I am reading too much into the French character, for example). But I think anyone who denies the Randian themes are there is flat wrong. And I do think that some of my fellow Democrats really resist the idea that they may have enjoyed a movie with Randian subtext. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/56 "2004-12-13T15:20:58Z")
i went looking for images of the Incredibles (OK, Elastigirl) online, & found a review in French. A Babelfish translation rendered this– > [@](#): > > At one time, Mr. Indestructible was admired of all. He saved the cats, stopped the malicious ones and avoided the catastrophes between two amorous meeting with Elastigirl. But the hell is paved good intentions: our superhéros was found trailed in front of the courts to have wounded suicidal by saving it. It is not necessary any more so that one administration meddles relegates the heroes dressed up to the wall cupboard. What to make depressed most valiant of the iron men. > > Imagine the Four Fantastic ones meeting Simpson: here Indestructibles, a family of superhéros where that moves when the housework is done. Yes, but here: the small life pépère in suburbs does not make the deal of Dad Parr - forgiveness: Mr. Indestructible. To regulate the conflicts between Violet, the teenager badly in his skin, and Dash, the facetious kid, it too is for a superman. Then when a mysterious spy proposes to him to take again service, time to readjust its lycra and, lighter than a bird, faster than a train, more powerful than a ball of gun, Mr. Indestructible is back! > > PARODIES AND REFERENCES > > Fan of superhéros since his more tender childhood, Brad Bird theirs returns well. In addition to all the traditional ones of the kind towards which Bird lorgne tenderly, one thinks of James Bond, the realizer remembering the decorations and the music of films of adventures of the Sixties. In short, like always at Pixar, this parody good fleure memories of childhood, the reference to the popular culture and unslung imagination: you always wondered who manufactures and rapièce the costumes of the superhéros? Bird gives you the answer with the tastiest character of film and a scene of anthology. Your costume, with or without cape? There still, the debate is worth its heavy épinards.“Les Indestructibles”, it is the family film par excellence: there is a hero for each member of the family. In addition to super - dad, super-mom does not let himself walk on the feet (elastic), Violette is the older sister in search of visibility and Dash will have right to the most exciting scene of film. Without forgetting Jack-Jack, the most beautiful baby of the world (obviously) to the hidden talents… > © Free Belgium 2004 > Note To Moderators–not a complete review, A partial reprinting of a computer translation, with copyright noted & attributed. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/57 "2004-12-13T15:30:55Z")
There’s an interesting [thread at IMDb](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0317705/board/flat/13424766) regarding philosophical themes in The Incredibles. (In the IMDb thread, as here, there is heavy resistance to the idea that The Incredibles has Randian elements.) Yet another person who sees Rand in the movie. Odd that so many of us viewers seem to have arrived at the same “delusion.” Consider the possibility that you (those of you who still don’t see it) may be resisting seeing Randian themes that are really there. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/58 "2004-12-13T15:44:13Z")
I checked out Rand on Wikki, & her ideas seem to be a sad mish-mash of, well _other people’s_ ideas. Maybe you’re giving her concepts too much credit. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/59 "2004-12-13T15:58:09Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > I checked out Rand on Wikki, & her ideas seem to be a sad mish-mash of, well _other people’s_ ideas. No argument here. But Rand (like her or not, and whether or not her ideas are a rehash) has been very influential over the past few decades. ---
**Author:** ![eunoia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eunoia/32/97_2.png) [@eunoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eunoia)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/60 "2004-12-13T16:24:15Z")
“Randian”? On the surface, it’s self-evident! 😃 Although perhaps more accurately described as “meta-Randian”: a wiser, more balanced and reasoned Rand largely mitigating all the Manichaeism and frustrated lust. I think of it as “Rand _à la française_©” 'cause I love pissing off self-described “conservatives” who use objectivism as a shield. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506.md?page=4)