# Conservative agenda in The Incredibles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506 "2004-12-12T22:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/61 "2004-12-13T17:17:01Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > [Here’s an interesting review](http://www.solohq.com/Articles/Reed/Objectivist_Morality_Anime.shtml) by an objectivist writer who embraces the film, and sees something of Ayn Rand in the character of Edna Mode (the costume designer). I WAS GONNA MENTION THAT! I THOUGHT SHE LOOKED LIKE A LITTLE ANIMATED AYN! Seriously, I did get some Randian vibes when watching The Incredibles but I didn’t regard it as a deliberate agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/62 "2004-12-13T18:29:43Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > Then again, I went to **Team America** expecting a pro-Bush rally and walked away thinking it was rather centrist, so it’s probably all a mix of the baggage you bring, the baggage the creator brings, and the baggage the press provides. Actually, I thought _Team America_ wasn’t so much centrist as it simply ragged on the right wing for the first half (showing how cluelessly violent the Team was) and the left wing for the second half (once the FAG actors showed up), so the movie largely cancels itself out. It’s damn funny, though. It’s easy to interpret Randian elements in _The Incredibles_, but… so what? Is it an enjoyable movie or not? ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/63 "2004-12-13T18:52:49Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Why are you and others trying so hard to convince people that it doesn’t? I can’t speak for **ultrafilter** , but as for myself, I hate it when people try to cram political ideas into apolitical media. I find the whole Randian thing especially laughable as the principle inspiration for the film was “Watchmen”, where the Randian is treated as a pathetic psychopath. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/64 "2004-12-13T18:53:12Z")
Whether they are Randian or not, please [CLICK HERE](http://www.electricferret.com/battle/bigfight.shtml) & go a site to vote for our Fab Four, the Family Incredible. After all, they’re movie was _much_ better than the FF’s lame & unreleased mess. 🆒🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/65 "2004-12-13T19:17:11Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > I can’t speak for **ultrafilter** , but as for myself, I hate it when people try to cram political ideas into apolitical media. Oh, right. Because [no one](http://www.geocities.com/onewhoisalmighty/yertle.html) [has ever](http://www.geocities.com/onewhoisalmighty/sneetches.html) [tried to](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Knight_Returns) [slip social or political commentary](http://www.rotten.com/library/culture/banned-cartoons/) [into a juvenile art form](http://www.collectmad.com/madcoversite/mad001.html) > [@](#): > > I find the whole Randian thing especially laughable as the principle inspiration for the film was “Watchmen”, where the Randian is treated as a pathetic psychopath. “Inspired” maybe (at least partly), but that doesn’t mean that Bird necessarily agrees with Moore’s politics. ---
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/66 "2004-12-13T20:11:26Z")
I would like to offer the following observation as my invaluable contribution to this debate, to wit: I thought the costume designer was a takeoff on Carrie what’s-her-name, the former spokeswoman for Old Navy who passed away a few years ago. I will now return you to posts written by smart people. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/67 "2004-12-13T20:48:32Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Yet another person who sees Rand in the movie. Odd that so many of us viewers seem to have arrived at the same “delusion.” You’ve really got to get over the idea that this proves something. A lot of people independently came to the conclusion that the moon landing was fake. 😛 > [@](#): > > Consider the possibility that you (those of you who still don’t see it) may be resisting seeing Randian themes that are really there. I still want to know what country Tony is. **Airblairxxx** , I think you’re thinking of Carrie Donovan. > [@FriarTed](#): > > I THOUGHT SHE LOOKED LIKE A LITTLE ANIMATED AYN! [I’m really not seeing it.](http://www.theadvocates.org/celebrities/ayn-rand.html) ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/68 "2004-12-13T21:09:24Z")
So your entire argument is that other people saw it too, so you must be right? That’s generally not considered a very good standard of evidence 'round these parts. I mean, lots of people independently saw a kid standing by the window in that scene in _Three Men and a Baby_, too. That doesn’t mean he was there, ya know? There are elements to the movie that could reasonably be described as being in line with Rand’s views, yes. Does that necessarily mean they’re derived from her works? No, there are lots of other sources for those sorts of ideas. Does the fact that there are other sources necessarily mean they’re _not_ derived from Rand’s works? Of course not. But that’s really about all we can say about it–there’s just not enough evidence to really say one way or the other. My personal opinion is that the themes are there because they make for a good story. That’s the whole point of a story-telling medium, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/69 "2004-12-13T21:18:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@spoke-](#): > > > > Yet another person who sees Rand in the movie. Odd that so many of us viewers seem to have arrived at the same “delusion.” > > You’ve really got to get over the idea that this proves something. Charles Manson thought that “Helter Skelter” and the rest of the Beatles’ White Album foretold a race war. Charles Manson was the only one who believed this. Clearly, he was imposing an interpretation on the material. He was nuts. On the other hand, plenty of people have independently come to the conclusion that Yertle the Turtle was an allegorical story of Adolph Hitler and Nazi Germany. They came to this conclusion even though (if I am not mistaken) Dr. Seuss never openly acknowledged it. They came to this conclusion because the allegory jumps right out at the reader. So much so that many different people came to the same obvious conclusion. Ditto with The Incredibles. The allegory (and particularly the Randian talking points) jump right out at the astute viewer, and many people have independently noticed the objectivist slant. Say **Marley23** , you do know that there is such a thing as allegory, yes? You know there is a reason the word exists in the dictionary? Some artists are clever and interesting enough to get their points across with symbolism and analog, in the hope that some of their audience will be clever and astute enough to pick up on it. Or maybe Moby Dick is just a story about a guy chasing a whale. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/70 "2004-12-13T21:21:17Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > So your entire argument is that other people saw it too, so you must be right? No, my entire argument is based on the plot points and dialogue I have mentioned, _augmented_ by the fact that many other people have noticed the same things. [Yet another such person.](http://badgerherald.com/artsetc/2004/11/10/incredibles_attacks_.php) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/71 "2004-12-13T21:27:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I still want to know what country Tony is. Cute, **Marley23**. Your snarkiness really makes your case! _Touché_, sir! Check and mate! :rolleyes: Not every character in an allegorical story must be allegorical. What does Ishmael represent in Moby Dick? ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/72 "2004-12-13T22:43:22Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > I’ve heard some conseratives lament the fact that in many Cartoon movies, a kid usually only has one parent and it’s the mom. I don’t lament it but I have noticed it. I think it is not so much a political stance but rather because animators are cheap bastards. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/73 "2004-12-13T22:46:06Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Whether they are Randian or not, please [CLICK HERE](http://www.electricferret.com/battle/bigfight.shtml) & go a site to vote for our Fab Four, the Family Incredible. > > After all, they’re movie was _much_ better than the FF’s lame & unreleased mess. > 🆒🙂 \ We’re 200 votes behind, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/74 "2004-12-13T22:56:59Z")
If there is one statement I find most odious when it comes to discussions of films, books, or other media, it is “You are reading too much into it.” That said… It seems clear to me that _The Incredibles_ was made without regard to any political agenda. As a result, it is easy to read _any_ political agenda into it. I’ll grant the Objectivist shadings to the character of Edna Mode. They are unmistakable, and seem to be clearly intentional. However, I think the OP and those who think like him are overlooking something very important: Edna Mode is batshit crazy. Also, she is more than just a little sinister. That Edna views the superheroes through an objectivist filter does not mean that the film endorses that viewpoint. At most, her character is a nod to the established trope that the entire notion of superheroes are essentially fascist by its very nature. A trope most succesfully mined in _The Watchmen_ by Alan Moore, who is not exactly well-known for his conservative political views. Outside of this one character, the OP’s claims fall apart. It is trivially easy to find a liberal bias that is just as vigorously supported by the material as the perceived conservative bias. Some examples off the top of my head: [ul][li]Mr. Incredible assaults his boss, who is a souless corporate leech, but is protected from repurcussions by a sympathetic government spook. This illustrates the liberal principle that goverment is more helpful and trustworthy than private enterprise.[/li] [li]The superheroes feel that it is their responsibility to use their superior abilities to help those less powerful than them. This is a reflection of the general liberal sensibility that led to the creation of the welfare state.[/li] [li]The villain is an inventor who specializes in weapons, and wants to sell his inventions to the general public. Liberals, of course, support gun control laws and want to limit the availability of weapons to the public at large.[/li] [li]The Incredibles are a family of superpowered beings. Most families are not made of superpowered beings. There fore, the Incredibles are a nontraditional family. Liberals are known to be champions of non-traditional families.[/li] [li]At the end, when Dash is competing in the track meet, his parents encourage him to win, but not by too much. Again, this echoes the liberal welfare state, which places limits on how much one may excel past his fellow citizens.[/ul][/li] And so on and so forth. > [@spoke-](#): > > Not every character in an allegorical story must be allegorical. > > What does Ishmael represent in Moby Dick? While you may have a point in general, you could not possibly have chosen a worse novel with which to illustrate it. Take a look at this [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael_%28Moby-Dick%29) article for the most superficial interpretation of what Ishmael represents in _Moby Dick_. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/75 "2004-12-13T23:16:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It seems clear to me that _The Incredibles_ was made without regard to any political agenda. As a result, it is easy to read _any_ political agenda into it. I disagree. If that were so, there would be as many people coming out of the theater saying “Did you catch all the liberal undertones?” That doesn’t seem to be happening. And about the Ishmael character? You’re reading too much into it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/76 "2004-12-13T23:31:22Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > I disagree. If that were so, there would be as many people coming out of the theater saying “Did you catch all the liberal undertones?” That doesn’t seem to be happening. Way to sidestep the actual argument there, **spoke-**. Got anything more substantive to add then an appeal to popularity? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/77 "2004-12-14T00:05:14Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Now, once I caught wind of some Randian themes, I will grant that I may have started looking for other conservative elements. (Maybe I am reading too much into the French character, for example). But I think anyone who denies the Randian themes are there is flat wrong. Are where? That’s a serious question. Are you claiming that they’re “there” in Bird’s mind, “there” in the minds of the viewers, or “there” in the actual pixels onscreen? I don’t think anyone is denying that it is possible for a viewer to interpret the film as having Randian themes. If anyone is, they’re being silly. Obviously some people have interpreted the film this way. However, Bird has apparently said nothing that would suggest that this was his intended message. And if you want to argue that the film has Randian themes in some objective (ha!) sense, independent of the artist’s intent or the viewer’s perception, well…I don’t think you’re going to find a lot of people who’d even agree that such a thing is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/78 "2004-12-14T00:07:08Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > However, Bird has apparently said nothing that would suggest that this was his intended message. And if you want to argue that the film has Randian themes in some objective (ha!) sense, independent of the artist’s intent or the viewer’s perception, well…I don’t think you’re going to find a lot of people who’d even agree that such a thing is possible. I would, but I’m shamelessly post-modern. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/79 "2004-12-14T00:20:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I would, but I’m shamelessly post-modern. I would have thought the shamelessly postmodern position would be that an artistic work could have no objective meaning, that it was all a matter of individual perception. There is of course the school of thought that holds that neither artistic intent nor viewer’s reaction matters, it’s the work itself that’s important, but I don’t think that’s very postmodern. Is it? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506/80 "2004-12-14T00:38:57Z")
You’re absolutely right, **Lamia**. In my haste to be a smartass, I misread your post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-agenda-in-the-incredibles/279506.md?page=5)