# Conservative Dopers, please explain the concept of "FemiNazi" to me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 16, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889 "2003-10-16T23:28:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/121 "2003-10-22T22:38:08Z")
> [@](#): > > **margin** said: > Catsix, you had bad experience with one woman, whom you do not name, and about whom we have only your word. Provide documentation, please. Many. And I’m forbidden by the rules of the SDMB to name their names or even specifically mention where you can go to read it for yourself. If I wouldn’t be banned from this board for giving you those names and locations **I would give them to you**. > [@](#): > > You might not want to say that to a woman who’s just escaped an abusive relationship. You might not want to say that to a woman who’s just been mugged, raped, or attacked. You might not want to say that a woman who’s lower class, because the chances are she might just face things that you’re not aware of. You might not want to say that to a woman who’s been raped, or to her friends, who know she’s been raped. Somehow, I just can’t imagine such women confiding in someone who defends SAL or dismisses their concerns, thereby making their lives invisible to you. And what about the men who get abused, mugged, beaten, attacked, raped and murdered? What about ‘lower class’ men? You, **margin** , are the kind of person that is the reason I will _never_ claim to be a feminist. Because feminism is a culture of fear and hatred of all things male. If feminism were all about equality, the leading feminist ‘scholars’ wouldn’t be using terms like ‘testosterone poisoning’ and threatening the hell out of people like Erin Pizzey (who fights against _all_ domestic violence) and Christina Hoff Somers whose research has proven that girls are out-classing boys _every day_ in language and reading skills and are rapidly vanishing any gap that existed in maths and sciences. > [@](#): > > I’m not trying to shame you into silence, but I would like to know how much experience you’ve actually had with real life feminists, as opposed to the extremists, and if in fact you’ve read those writers from cover to cover. I have. They simply do not make up the majority of feminsts Far more experience than I would ever care to have again. I attended meetings of the Campus Women’s Organization at my university for 3 years. I read feminist works because I had professors who were feminists and used their classes as avenues to shove down our throats their own political ideologies about how nasty and awful men are, and that men are oppressors. As for Catharine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin and Robin Morgan not being a ‘majority’, you’re right, they’re not. It’s not possible for a _majority of any group to be the leaders of it_, but they certainly are extremely well known, widely studied, and regarded as ‘leading feminist scholars’. > [@](#): > > I’m saying it again, too. Feminists—and the Army, really, not exactly a feminist environment—made me believe that I was not a victim, Funny, then, that a philosophy entirely based upon the female part of the population being the oppressed victims of the ‘patriarchy’ made you feel like you were not a victim, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > Men like Andy have not done a damned thing for women like me, and I owe him absolutely fucking nothing. What the fuck makes you think they owe it to you to ‘do a damned thing’ for you? They don’t. Nobody owes you a goddamn thing because of your vagina. Nobody is obligated to do a ‘damned thing’ for you or any ‘woman like you’. Get used to it. It’s the way the world works. You aren’t owed anything. You have to earn it. Women like you contribute to the attitude that feminists are whiny bitches who want everything handed to them. And you know what I found? Men ‘like **Andy** ’ don’t bitch about women who are willing to earn their own way in life. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/122 "2003-10-23T05:17:28Z")
Here are some cites, as demanded, on feminist utopian fiction. Feminist utopian fiction is a sub-genre that ranges from serious polemic to wishful fantasy. In depicting societies of the future or other worlds, feminist utopian fiction often involves science-fiction elements, though other stories are placed in the distant past, in the not-too-distant future, or fictional contemporary societies. Because of its wide range of setting and themes, feminist utopian fiction crosses over several genres – novels with literary aspirations, science fiction, historical romance, and more. Some of the frequent themes of feminist utopian fiction are societies in which men have either died out, have never existed, or live separately from woman, who are the narrative focus. The all-female societies in some cases propagate through cloning, parthenogenesis or other means. In Ursula K. LeGuin’s “The Left Hand of Darkness,” characters are sexually neutral and can change freely into males or females and back again. In other stories, men and women co-exist equally or women rule. In historical fiction, the utopian society might worship the Goddess – at least until patriarchal religion ruins everything. A related sub-genre is the feminist dystopia, which often imagines a horrible future society displaying the oppression of a ruthless patriarchal rule, the most famous example of this being “The Handmaid’s Tale.” There is also a male-centered version in which men encounter a society of women and re-assert themselves. This theme has been made into a number of humorously bad movies such as “Queen of Outer Space” and “Cat Women of the Moon,” and some critics suggest that the animus lies in men returning from World War II and finding that women had taken over many traditionally male jobs and roles. But it is feminist utopian fiction that has been the more prolific sub-genre and as such it has received a good deal of scholarly and historical interest. Defenders of feminist utopian fiction might call it empowering or minimize the hostility in it as mere wishful fantasy: men disappear and women get to run things. Yet we can’t deny the animosity in those works whose theme is how much the world would improve if men did not exist, or those that portray all men as too violent to live in a civil society. “Empowerment” here descends into female chauvinism. The web has many sites that discuss feminist utopian fiction – many that can be found by searching for that term. On the site Feminist Fantasy, Science Fiction and Utopia, ([http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/index.html](http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/index.html)) for example, you can find bibliographies, research, criticism, checklists of authors, and a page dedicated to “Theme & Character Lists: Women-Only Worlds,” which includes some fiction that uses a women-only theme in a non-feminist manner. Note the prevalence of the theme of reproduction without men: > [@](#): > > Gom, Leona. “The Y Chromosome.” The characters go out of their way to describe their reproductive method – “ovafusion” – as neither cloning nor parthenogenesis. Doctors are able to use this method to fuse two eggs together in a woman. Pregnancy and childbirth are normal and the child inherits both parents’ genetic material. > As it happens, there is a completely functional all-women world – but a few men are hiding out. Since they are not incorporated into the main society in any fashion, this still qualifies as a woman-only world. > Griffith, Nicola. “Ammonite.” Women may psychically fertilize one another; pregnancy and childbirth are normal, and the child inherits both parents’ genetic material. > Hall, Sandi. “Wingwomen of Hera” (Spinsters / Aunt Lute: 1987) - the women of Hera are a parthenogenetic race … Here are excerpts from Feminist Literary Utopias: A Review of the Tradition in English at [http://home.fuse.net/dabogens/utopia.html](http://home.fuse.net/dabogens/utopia.html) > [@](#): > > ( Some of the best-known works of this period (19th century) are Mary Griffin’s “Three Hundred Years Hence,” which focuses on peace and prosperity, and Mary E. Bradley Lane’s “Mizora: A Prophecy,” a woman-only utopia based on science and education in which men have become extinct while women have found the secret to eternal life. …(deletions) > The masterpiece of this era (1890 to 1920) is Charlotte Perkins Gilman’s “Herland,” originally serialized in Gilman’s magazine The Forerunner during 1915 and first published separately in 1979 to strong readership. “Herland” is a women-only world where everyone lives peacefully under the guidance of an intellectual aristocracy. … Suzy McKee Charnas sets up the world that is to be left behind in “Walk to the End of the World,” and then she shows the new women’s society in “Motherlines.” The “motherlines” of the title refer to the descendents from the original members of the band. Reproduction is by parthenogenesis > … Donna J. Young’s “Retreat, As It Was!” tells the tale of a world before men. In some of its descendants an x chromosome is damaged, resulting in offspring with malformed sexual organs and a more aggressive nature. … In “Solution Three,” by Naomi Mitchison, homosexual love and the cloning of individuals with desirable characteristics are originally used to preserve a peaceful balance in the population until more immediate problems of survival are solved. Towards the novels end, heterosexual love is rediscovered, and the resulting children further the society’s recovery through the superior characteristics of these new members. (Andy’s note: In this last one, it appears that feminism again meets eugenics.) > … > In both of these books (Elizabeth Marshall Thomas’s “Reindeer Moon” and Cecelia Holland’s “Pillar of the Sky”), society begins to deteriorate when men and women begin to live in nuclear families rather than in supportive single-sex dwellings. Feminist utopian fiction has been the subject of research and has been taught in courses at the college level. Here is one [teacher’s recommended list:](http://research.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/utopia.html) > [@](#): > > (The following discussion of feminist utopian fiction took place on WMST-L in late July/early August 2000. It began with a request for suggested Texts … ) > > Subject: contemporary feminist utopias > Hi > > I am looking for contemporary feminist utopias to teach in a 1st year Humanities course. I am aware of Gilman’s _Herland_, Piercy’s _Woman on the Edge of Time_, and Starhawk’s _The Fifth Sacred Thing._ Could anyone suggest some other texts that might be appropriate? > > Thanks in advance > > Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:19:34 -0400 > From: Martha Charlene Ball \ > Subject: Re: contemporary feminist utopias > > When I have taught feminist utopias, I used the ones you mentioned, plus the following: > > Joanna Russ, _The Female Man_ > Octavia Butler, _Parable of the Sower_ and _Parable of the Talents_ > Katherine Burdekin (Murray Constantine), _Swastika Night_ (a dystopia that is also a powerful satire on Nazi Germany, written in the 30s) > Ursula K. LeGuin, _The Left Hand of Darkness_; I would also recommend _The Dispossessed_ and _Always Coming Home_, both also by LeGuin. > Monique Wittig, _Les Guerillieres_ > > Others that I would consider using if I taught the course again: > Sally Miller Gearhart, _The Wanderground_ (It’s out of print, so I would use photocopies of a chapter or two) > Diana Rivers, _Journey to Zelindar_, _The Hadra_, or others of The Hadra series. > Joan Slonczewski, _A Door Into Ocean_ > Suzette Hadin Elgin, _Native Tongue_ > Dorothy Bryant, _The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You_ (may be out of print) > > And there are lots of others. > Charlene **Special note to Margin.** Feminist utopian fiction crosses over several genres: science fiction, fantasy, cyberpunk feminism, satire, feminist propaganda, historical romance, and so on. And it is done in tones ranging from serious to farcical. As such, it spans a wide cross-section of readers, from comic-book level to college. In fact, it is taught in some courses. It is not a secret, nor is it something I made up. You could find this out if you would just get off your lazy ass and do a google search. You might discover that things exist _ **even if you are ignorant of them.** _ While your ignorance is broad, at least it is very deep. So I will be damned if I’m going to spend hours finding, coding and writing up links simply because you have your head so far up your ass you think your farts sound like the ocean. Everything I have written on this thread could be similarly backed up, though posting it for you is a classic case of pearls before swine. I will be glad to further demonstrate your ignorance on any individual topic you wish to be proved wrong about. But listen to this: doing nothing but screaming “cite,” and continuing to scream it after sources are provided is the epitome of trollish behavior. If you continue, we can take it up with the moderators. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/123 "2003-10-23T05:33:48Z")
**Zoe** seems to have ducked out of the thread. So let’s return to **Margin’s** comments: > [@](#): > > Andy, you’re just being disingenuous. I’ve repeatedly quoted your bullet statements that all begin “Feminism.” Provides cites for that or it’s only your opinion. And it’s a paranoid, hateful opinion at that. Then you will note that those posts do not begin with “All feminists …” As the people I have quoted are all feminists, you are beating another strawwomyn. > [@](#): > > Let’s see, for proof of what feminism is about, who should we listen to? The guy who keeps repeating the same thing—you know, about how feminists want to kill off the male population, stuff like that, and never backs it up because it exists only in his fevered little imagination That is an outright lie. > [@](#): > > His (Andy’s) personal experiences lead him to make accusations that feminists—he didn’t qualify that to 'only the extreme ones when he did that bullet list-----want to kill off the male half of the speices. Another outright lie. You have yourself pasted and reprinted that bulletted list, and it contains nothing like that. You have made this lie several times. > [@](#): > > Feminists want to kill off men? Uh, yeah, sweetie. See below. > [@](#): > > So, once again, SAL. CITE for all those bullet comments. This is my first warning before I report you as a troll. I have repeatedly asked you which items you would like a cite for. I am not about to let you scream “cite” in blanket fashion. I will **not** provide you with a cite, for example, for the existence of affirmative action. Its existence is common knowledge. Demanding a cite for common knowledge, making posts of nothing more than “cite?” for an entire post, ignoring offered citations and continuing to scream “cite,” and refusing to specify what parts you wish citations for are all trollish behavior. So are outright lies purporting to be quotes of what another poster has said. You are guilty of all of these in just this thread, and you will cease such behavior or we will take it to the moderators to see if you have committed any bannable offenses. Also, I would like you to respond to the specific quote I have posted from Robin Morgan: “I feel that “man-hating” is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” I ask you again: Do you condemn this statement? If you have nothing to say against it, we can assume you do not disagree with Morgan. > [@](#): > > I’m not trying to shame you into silence, but I would like to know how much experience you’ve actually had with real life feminists, as opposed to the extremists, The extremists _are_ real feminists. Or perhaps you declaring that those who don’t think like you are not feminists. In which case you are behaving like the aforementioned “feminazis.” And if you actually _don’t_ agree with Morgan, why don’t you directly condemn her words? You have certainly spent enough time and energy defending her. > [@](#): > > The fact is that rape and domestic violence are rediculously common, and when feminists bring up the subject, there’s tremendous resentment that they’re doing so. These forms of violence exist in just about every culture. Child abuse and neglect also exist in just about every culture. I’m guessing you would take offense if a political movement began portraying them as: A) A crime only women committed, and B) A crime that _all_ women are guilty of in some form or another, and C) Wildly more prevelant than any other research shows them to be. – because that is exactly the way feminists manipulate emotional reactions with exaggerated scare-stories about rape and domestic violence. Child abuse is a real problem, just like rape. But if someone used child abuse as a political hammer to bash your entire group, I imagine you’d object. Why is it that you can’t understand, then, that men also object to being demonized? > [@](#): > > Sort of like Andy’s. You may be an educated man, but I don’t live at that level … I am an educated man. I also am the son of a single mother who held a blue-collar job, and I joined the Army and worked blue-collar jobs so that I could get that education. In other words, I didn’t have the easy life bestowed on me for being male. However, when I enterred my chosen field, I **did** find many feminists trying to block my way via affirmative action. > [@](#): > > His hostility when I related how I’d been fired—and I filed suit with the ERA, which did no good at all----is exactly the attitude that one finds … I think I now understand how you define “hostility.” I said I didn’t believe your account, that I suspected it was incomplete. You apparently are the type to say you are a victim of “hostility” if people don’t instantly believe you. But your account is only one side of the story, and there are plenty of red flags that cast doubt on it. For instance, how in the heck do you file suit with the ERA? The law didn’t even pass. Consider: We have seen you embrace anti-male feminists; we have seen you attack people for disagreeing with you; we have seen you create fanciful slurs and character assassination against those who disagree with you; and we have seen an outpouring of ill-informed and poorly constructed vitriol from you. Why should we think you are telling the complete truth about this alleged firing? There is ample room to doubt you, and you have supplied the room yourself. > [@](#): > > I’m sure Andy’s convinced that what I said happened, did not happen. As a matter of fact, he said that my attitude must have been the cause of my firing. No one was punished for that incident except for me. Does that mean it doesn’t exist? Does that mean he’s right? Or does it mean that the bad guys got away with it? Judging from your character as displayed here, I suspect the fault is not in the stars, Maratio, but in yourself. > [@](#): > > As far as my losing my job, I want to make something clear, too. I have an attitude because of that incident. It is unfortunate that you have allowed this alleged incident to drive you into the same anti-male camp as Robin Morgan and Susan Brownmiller. But once you have crossed the line into abject hatred, Malvolio, you lose the audience’s sympathy. And there is _nothing_ in your life that makes it right for you to hate men because they are men. > [@](#): > > If you really do think that Andy’s and my opinions are equally hostile and offensive, I would point out that you are minimizing Andy’s rage, and maximizing my irritation. And I won’t apologize for being irritated, either. (And on a previous episode of “Margin:”) > [@](#): > > Of course, who better to judge events of my life than a raving woman-hater. Still no cite, I see, just more paranoid bitching. You know, guys like you who believe in feminist conspiracies are the reason feminists have such a bad opinion of men. You’re nuts. … Cite, please? It’s not going to go away. I’m just going to ignore your raving, because you basically say the same damned thing over and over again: “FEMINISTS ARE EVIL BITCHES WHO HATE MEN.” Yawn. We’ll leave it to the readers to interpret who is displaying rage here. > [@](#): > > Men like Andy have not done a damned thing for women like me, and I owe him absolutely fucking nothing. Actually, Marge N., you owe me and everyone else the right to be free of job discrimination. And since you’re not likely to proffer it willingly, we will have to insist. You also owe it to me to see me as a human being rather than as the rapist-oppressor stereotype that feminists have used against all men – stereotypes that you yourself defend. I’d like to close with Robin Morgan’s quote on man-hating and ask you once again to condemn it. Please note that we men **did not dream up this anti-male hatred displayed by such feminists.** _“I feel that “man-hating” is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.”_ Robin Morgan > [@](#): > > Also, that more violence against men—and damage—is done by other men so why is it that supposed mens’ rights advocates only want to blame and discuss women who do it? Cite please? I would hazard a guess that it has to do with feminists attempting to demonize men on the issue. Whenever I read about a feminist-sponsored march or other event against domestic violence, I have noted that they mention only female victims, and only females who are victims of men.\*\* Prove me wrong and show me a feminist organization that lists male victims like Phil Hartman in its listings of domestic violence victims.\*\* (originally posted by Biggirl) > [@](#): > > Yes, I do tend to believe what people do. Like lobby for reproduction rights, educate on domestic violence and offer good affordable medical care. That’s what the feminist organizations I posted about do. Actually, they don’t. None of those organizations support reproductive rights for fathers, do they? Nor do they educate people about domestic violence. Rather, they use domestic violence for propaganda purposes. Not so? You can refute that simply by showing that any of those organizations educate the public about domestic violence committed by women. This is a broad area, so you can show us if they educate the public about the following topics: [ul] [li]violence committed by women against men[/li][li]violence committed by women against women[/li][li]violence committed by women against children.[/li][/ul] My bet – and feel free to prove me wrong – is that these groups discuss only violence by men against women. Hence they are not truly educating the public about domestic violence: they are politicizing a distorted picture of the issue. This distortion comes down to the basic message that women are innocent and men are evil. You can prove me wrong on this by showing me where those groups educated the public on violent acts committed by women. As for providing good, affordable medical care, please prove me wrong by showing me where any of those groups lobby for equal medical care for men. Or are they demanding more of our resources go to women’s health issues even though women live longer than men? ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/124 "2003-10-23T05:45:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*If feminism were all about equality, the leading feminist ‘scholars’ wouldn’t be using terms like ‘testosterone poisoning’ and threatening the hell out of people like Erin Pizzey (who fights against _all_ domestic violence) \*\* Quite true. I remember reading about Pizzey. In her research, she found that a number of women who claimed to be victims of domestic violence were themselves violent people. And because she broke this little secret she has been threatened with violence by other feminists – y’know, the ones who are so opposed to violence and all. Perhaps someone can provide a cite to that, as I am quoting from memory. I believe that feminists mounted a campaign to suppress her workds and keep it off library shelves. It apparently has been quite successful. However, you can read it [online.](http://www.bennett.com/ptv/index.shtml) > [@](#): > > \*\*Men ‘like **Andy** ’ don’t bitch about women who are willing to earn their own way in life. \*\* Precisely, especially because my own mother was a single, working mother. What I do object to are feminists who feel they have a grievance against the entire male populace, or that men somehow “owe” women because of our original sin of being born male. Also, I more than object to feminists who get their feelings hurt in some situation and decide they are entitled to restitution from and revenge against all men. I react to being hated pretty much as any other person would. ---
**Author:** ![Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Satisfying\_Andy\_Licious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satisfying_Andy_Licious)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/125 "2003-10-23T05:49:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Malacandra \* > \*\* Also, if you’re going to sniffily argue that **SAL** ’s views are down to a divorce he’s bitter about … \*\* I just wanted to add a clarification that this is something Margin made up, not anything I said. Just fer the record. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/126 "2003-10-23T09:59:44Z")
**margin** , you said that feminists make abortion rights a key plank of their policy because abortion is a necessary part of a woman’s ability to control her fertility, which is itself necessary in order for women to gain their other rights. Therefore the right to abortion is asserted simply by virtue of the reason why you want it, and any other rights and wrongs are mere side issues (though you assure me, comfortingly, that they would not be taken lightly). Therefore “If I don’t want it here and now, I want the right to kill it” is an accurate statement of the position, although it is not a direct quote (and I didn’t claim it was one). I only remark that it doesn’t sound so pretty to phrase it that way, and wouldn’t make much of a marching song. As to **SAL** , I don’t know him from a hole in the ground and I don’t, off-hand, remember any time I’ve addressed him directly, though I may have. But I’ll do so now: When **margin** claimed that most violence is male-on-male, she was right. Just not _domestic_ violence, and I don’t think she claimed it was. Most violence is extra-mural, between men aged 20 ±5 years - and, of course, women are comparatively seldom the victims of violence outside the home, though anyone would be forgiven for thinking otherwise. I seem to remember that Pizzey found that more than 60% of the women turning up in her refuge were as violent as the men they were leaving. Taken with the violent women who _weren’t_ going to be turning up, because of _not_ having a violent male partner to run away from… And yes, I’ve heard the death-threat stories too, although here in Websense Hell I ain’t going to be able to search for them, I shouldn’t think. Oh, and **margin** - Sarcasm is _my_ friend? 😃 😃 😃 😃 😃 :rolleyes: You ask (paraphrased): “If domestic violence against men is such an issue, why aren’t men doing more about it?”. Well, that is the question. Possibly because there isn’t a men’s movement comparable to feminism that aims at supporting men _qua_ men, advancing the rights of men, raising the profile of downtrodden men, or even (dare I say it) exaggerating the extent of the downtreading. Possibly because of the very successful representation of domestic violence as an evil _solely_ perpetrated by men upon women - certainly whenever I see anything in the media about it, the “picture posed by models” invariably features a filthy-tempered brute of a man lashing out at a cringing, inoffensive woman. _shrug_ It’s a complex question. What’s your explanation? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/127 "2003-10-23T12:02:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Malacandra \* > \*\ ***margin** , the point I was making to **Biggirl** was that caricaturization cuts both ways. Arguing that men who are opposed to the worst excesses of feminism are fuelled by terror and paranoia is no more logical than arguing that feminists themselves are driven by the kind of fears I allude to. Possibly less, as feminists, even not the extremists who advocate refusing to bear male infants, are very vociferous in arguing that both rape and domestic violence are practically universal _and tacitly supported by all men_. Not so much fuelled by fear and paranoia as doing all they can to fan the flames, I’d say. > > \*\* I was not characterizing men who are opposed to the worst aspects of feminism in any way at all. I was making fun of **SAL** specifically. Also, I take exception to the way he and good ole Rush take the extreme fringe of the feminist movement and use it to describe all feminists. Something that Rush is apparently lying his way away from as I noted earlier. (Note his characterization of NOW as a bunch of Feminazis and his new definition of a Feminazi as just 12 or so extremists). A tact his dittoheads do not seem to be following (note **Shodan’s** explanation of a Feminazi as a feminist who think reproduction rights are one of, if not the most, important issue facing feminists today. This is the reason why most women who believe in reproduction rights and equal rights do not self-identify as feminist-- not because the extremist feminists have taken over the movement (see the links I’ve provided to actual feminist organizations) but because the right has redefined feminism to mean: Those crazy bitches who hate men and want to kill them all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/128 "2003-10-23T13:40:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, I take exception to the way he and good ole Rush take the extreme fringe of the feminist movement and use it to describe all feminists. Something that Rush is apparently lying his way away from as I noted earlier. (Note his characterization of NOW as a bunch of Feminazis and his new definition of a Feminazi as just 12 or so extremists). A tact his dittoheads do not seem to be following (note Shodan’s explanation of a Feminazi as a feminist who think reproduction rights are one of, if not the most, important issue facing feminists today. It sounds like you are trying to have it both ways. First you condemn Rush for characterizing all feminists based on what the fringe elements say. Then you argue that the position that abortion is the most important issue around is a mainstream feminist position. The definition of Femi-nazi as “a feminist who thinks abortion is the most important issue” is not mine, it is Rush’s. Your cites seem to show that he was entirely correct in characterizing it as the position of NOW and the other organizations you cite. Heck, read your own quote and see what **you** mention first as the determinants of feminism: > [@](#): > > This is the reason why most women who believe in **reproduction rights** and equal rights do not self-identify as feminist-- not because the extremist feminists have taken over the movement (see the links I’ve provided to actual feminist organizations) but because the right has redefined feminism to mean: Those crazy bitches who hate men and want to kill them all. And I believe you are probably incorrect about why women are reluctant nowadays to identify as feminist. There \* an\* element of “crazy bitches who hate men and want to kill them” in the modern feminist movement, and they have a disproportionate voice in many feminist organizations and feminist rhetoric. And the failure of mainstream feminists to renounce that element alienates many women who do not see any reason to proactively hate or preemptively judge the men in their lives as evil oppressors. When you add to that the increasing tendency to make support for abortion the be-all and end-all of political discussion (as pointed out by Rush Limbaugh), you begin alienating the substantial numbers of women who are not so reflexively pro-abortion. Then, as the US moves further to the right (as witnessed by the elections of the post-Clinton era), and NOW and other feminist organizations move further to the left, you alienate still more women. And the persistent man-bashing and dishonest use of statistics and issues mentioned by **SAL** alienates even men of good will, who have no desire to keep women down, but also no desire to be kept down themselves. Even the most sensitive, caring, feminist male on earth gets tired of being blamed every time some East Coast extremist doesn’t get what she wants. Which accounts for the common formulation “I am in favor of equal rights, but I am not a feminist” we have heard from **catsix** and others. People have come to understand that “feminism” doesn’t mean what it used to - and this is not because of characterization by the Right. It is based on what comes out of Ms. Magazine and NOW - those who have set themselves up as the Voice of Modern Feminism. Feminism used to be support for equal rights for women. Now it means support for almost every crackpot notion the limousine liberals in NYC and LA can come up with. And the stridency with which any hint of disagreement is attacked leads Rush to label them as “feminazis”. The label wouldn’t stick if it didn’t have a certain resonance. If you want to say Rush is lying because he said there were only a dozen feminazis, and you are arguing “No, we all are”, fine. But I don’t think it helps your argument. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/129 "2003-10-23T17:12:04Z")
Catsix: > [@](#): > > And what about the men who get abused, mugged, beaten, attacked, raped and murdered? What about ‘lower class’ men? You, margin, are the kind of person that is the reason I will never claim to be a feminist. Because \*\*feminism is a culture of fear and hatred of all things male. \*\* > [@](#): > > If feminism were all about equality, the leading feminist ‘scholars’ wouldn’t be using terms like ‘testosterone poisoning’ and threatening the hell out of people like Erin Pizzey (who fights against all domestic violence) and Christina Hoff Somers whose research has proven that girls are out-classing boys every day in language and reading skills and are rapidly vanishing any gap that existed in maths and sciences. Please provide a cite for Robin Morgan’s being threatened. And Chirstina Hoff-Summers----sweetie, you just lost whatever credibility you had with regard to feminists. She’s widely regarded as anti-feminist who doesn’t let facts get in the way of feminist-bashing. What next? Kate Roiphe? CAmille Paglia? Phyllis Schlafly? Elaine Donnelly? Uh, yeah. Got a cite for the hatred and fear? Because thus far all I’ve seen in this thread is paranoid ranting. If I ever thought that feminism was unnecessary, this thread indictes otherwise. > [@](#): > > Some of the frequent themes of feminist utopian fiction are societies in which men have either died out, have never existed, or live separately from woman, who are the narrative focus. ``` Uh, yeah, and I'm supposed to care because...why? ``` Me: His (Andy’s) personal experiences lead him to make accusations that feminists— **he didn’t qualify that to 'only the extreme ones when he did that bullet list** -----want to kill off the male half of the speices. Bolding mine. And here’s the actual quote. “Do you think feminism advocates civil rights? Well, there are so many areas in which feminism opposes the rights of men that I doubt I could list them all, but for starters:” \*\*Gee, I don’t see a qualifier before ‘feminism’ so it becomes a general statement of feminist purpose. \*\* Try again, sweetie. > [@](#): > > Another outright lie. You have yourself pasted and reprinted that bulletted list, and it contains nothing like that. You have made this lie several times. > This is my first warning before I report you as a troll. I have repeatedly asked you which items you would like a cite for. I am not about to let you scream “cite” in blanket fashion. I will not provide you with a cite, for example, for the existence of affirmative action. Its existence is common knowledge. Demanding a cite for common knowledge, making posts of nothing more than “cite?” for an entire post, ignoring offered citations and continuing to scream “cite,” and refusing to specify what parts you wish citations for are all trollish behavior. So are outright lies purporting to be quotes of what another poster has said. > [@](#): > > Do you think feminism advocates civil rights? Well, there are so many areas in which feminism opposes the rights of men that I doubt I could list them all, but for starters: > > Opposes men’s rights to due process by insisting that men ought to be fired solely on a woman’s claim that he harassed her. > > Opposes fathers’ rights to visitation and custody. > > Opposes men’s rights to defend themselves against rape accusations via the establishment of so-called “rape shield laws” that rule out evidence contradicting the accusation. > > Opposes free speech by advocating various speech codes that apply to men but not to women. > > Opposes equality under the law by advocating programs that would exclude men from their benefits. > > Opposes men’s equal rights to higher education via affirmative action, quotas, women-only scholarships, etc., with men now becoming the minority on campus. > > Opposes the idea that women’s lives and men’s lives are of equal worth. > > Opposes equality under the law by advocating laws that protect women but not men or give women a far higher level of protection than men. > [@](#): > > Feminism used to be support for equal rights for women. Now it means support for almost every crackpot notion the limousine liberals in NYC and LA can come up with. And the stridency with which any hint of disagreement is attacked leads Rush to label them as “feminazis”. > > The label wouldn’t stick if it didn’t have a certain resonance. Any bigoted label that reduces people to charactitures is going to have resonance with people who want to perpetuate stereotypes. Frankly, I get to refer back to this thread from now on any time somebody tries to tell me there’s no need for feminism. I > [@](#): > > t is unfortunate that you have allowed this alleged incident to drive you into the same anti-male camp as Robin Morgan and Susan Brownmiller. But once you have crossed the line into abject hatred, Malvolio, you lose the audience’s sympathy. **And there is nothing in your life that makes it right for you to hate men because they are men.** God, Andy, sometimes you’re just laugh-out-loud funny. You think I hate you because you’re a man? Who said you were a man? If you were a man, you’d be honest. Not this dancing around shit, which is what you’ve done since this topic opened. Give me a cite for where I quoted you above, or go away. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/130 "2003-10-23T17:44:04Z")
> [@](#): > > ## \*Originally posted by margin \* \*\* quote: > > ## If feminism were all about equality, the leading feminist ‘scholars’ wouldn’t be using terms like ‘testosterone poisoning’ and threatening the hell out of people like Erin Pizzey (who fights against all domestic violence) and Christina Hoff Somers whose research has proven that girls are out-classing boys every day in language and reading skills and are rapidly vanishing any gap that existed in maths and sciences. > > Please provide a cite for Robin Morgan’s being threatened. > \*\* I don’t see her name listed in your cut and paste. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by margin \* > \*\* > And Chirstina Hoff-Summers----sweetie, you just lost whatever credibility you had with regard to feminists. She’s widely regarded as anti-feminist who doesn’t let facts get in the way of feminist-bashing. > \*\* Please provide cites showing that she is “widely regarded” as you characterize her, and showing that she is knowingly ignoring facts. Sweetie. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by margin \* > \*\* > If you were a man, you’d be honest. > \*\* Women are dishonest? Wow. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by margin \* > \*\* > Give me a cite for where I quoted you above, or go away. \*\* Indeed. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/131 "2003-10-23T19:46:05Z")
Uh, Shodan, I’ve been asking Andy for a cite for two pages. Until he provides me with what I’ve asked, demanding one of me while ignoring his refusal indicates a certain…let’s see. One standard for Andy, another for me? Hm, what could that be? Also, I meant Erin Pizzey instead of Robin Morgan. Obviously there’s some deep dark significance to that, though. If Andy claims he’s hated because he’s a man, he needs to start standing up and acting like one. I’ve met lots of boys who whine and bitch, but the men I’ve met have been notable for their honesty and other adult charactaristics. All Andy’s done has been rant and bitch and make accusations. Funnily enough, though, his defenders aren’t bothered by that at all. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/132 "2003-10-23T19:46:56Z")
> [@](#): > > **margin** said: > Please provide a cite for Robin Morgan’s being threatened. Right after you provide me a cite in which I said Robin Morgan was threatened. > [@](#): > > And Chirstina Hoff-Summers----sweetie, you just lost whatever credibility you had with regard to feminists. She’s widely regarded as anti-feminist who doesn’t let facts get in the way of feminist-bashing. Then please show us a credible refutation of Hoff-Sommers’s research. I know what she’s ‘regarded as’ by the feminists like Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon. What I have yet to see is them disprove any of her research. Hating Hoff-Sommers because she doesn’t toe the Dworkinite feminist line does not make Hoff-Sommers incorect. > [@](#): > > Because thus far all I’ve seen in this thread is paranoid ranting. You mean the stuff about how men like **Andy** are out to get you and how men like him cost you your job? Having talked to feminists who are afraid to go outdoors after dark because there are men out there who might rape and kill them, who will actually shout ‘No!’ at any man who makes eye contact with them on a sidewalk, or like Catharine MacKinnon handing them some kind of business card with a ‘You don’t have the right to look at me.’ message on it? > [@](#): > > Gee, I don’t see a qualifier before ‘feminism’ so it becomes a general statement of feminist purpose. And what about the statement that “Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” from Brownmiller? How about Germain Greer: “I have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of the ideal man. As far as I’m concerned, men are the product of a damanged gene.”? Of course, you will blindly ignore this as you have every other cite of prominent feiminist leaders of the feminist movement saying things that are full of hatred and fear of men. You are nothing if not consistent. > [@](#): > > Who said you were a man? If you were a man, you’d be honest. Not this dancing around shit, which is what you’ve done since this topic opened. So are you telling us that it’s because you’re a woman that you dance around the cites, covering your ears and howling ‘I haven’t seen any proof?’ Is it because one has to be male to be honest? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/133 "2003-10-23T19:54:55Z")
" Is it because one has to be male to be honest?" There’s a difference between being male and being a man. I’ll provide a cite when Andy does, sweetie. Nice of you to hold two different people to two different standards, though. And I have to say, it’s just incredibly amusing to watch you get all literal-minded over the Robin Morgan thing. > [@](#): > > What I have yet to see is them disprove any of her research. Hating Hoff-Sommers because she doesn’t toe the Dworkinite feminist line does not make Hoff-Sommers Heh. Those jackbooted feminists strike again! And oh my goodness, here we have unnamed feminists who are afraid to go out of doors! Why, someone who uses Christina Hoff-Summers and defends Andy just must be fair! Especially when they say stuff like this: > [@](#): > > You mean the stuff about how men like Andy are out to get you and how men like him cost you your job? Gee, I’m sure incredibly sexist guys just _love_ working with feminists who call them on their bullshit. I’m just sure of it. Along with their little female cheerleaders. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/134 "2003-10-23T20:39:53Z")
Abortion as the most important issue: Food is very important to me. I need it, every day. If I don’t have it, I will die. It is absolutely vital to my life. Crucial. BUT, if you can imagine, it is _not_ **the most important issue** to me. It is important, yes, but it would be a gross mischaracterization of that opinion to say that it is the most important issue to me. Abortion is kind of the same thing. If you say "Abortion is **the most important issue** for feminists/feminazis (whatever) it is a similar mischaracterization: it is important, yes, but not something that most feminists obsess over night and day, not something that defines their life or their political views. It is very, very important to feminists like me. No question. I am vehemently, passionately pro-choice. I can’t imagine anyone more pro-choce than me (although many are no doubt equal). But how often does this come up in my life? Answer: Pretty much exclusively on the Straight Dope. If you knew me IRL you would probably have no idea about the extent of my pro-choice views. I have never been to a demonstration on the subject. I have never participated in debates (again, excluding the SDMB). I have never lobbied the government. I have never joined any groups. If you asked any one of my friends/relations/enemies/adversaries/colleagues - any one at all - what the most important thing in my life was, not a single one would say “Abortion rights.” Zero. And I know a whole lot of feminists, and you couldn’t say that abortion is the most important thing to _any_ of them. So please stop saying that ! Furthermore: All this crap about using > [@](#): > > prominent feiminist leaders of the feminist movement to condemn “feminism” is bad rhetoric. You could make any argument about any topic in this manner. (Americans are bigots. Just look at the KKK ! They’re fundies too - check this quote from Pat Robertson! And violent - oh my, look at the murder rate ! --\> this strategy is laughable in other contexts. And yet acceptible here. Hm.) No one has to prove that Germaine Greer is wrong. No one has to prove that she’s an idiot. No one needs to provide any cites to counter that BS. What **you** need to do, if you want to describe “feminism” or “feminists,” is prove that there is unity among them and that they _all_ share the opinion that you do. Imagine this, if you can: an ordinary woman who describes herself as feminist, and who **disagrees** with Germaine Greer when she says men are caused by a damaged gene. What does that mean? Well, it means that “feminists” don’t think that men were caused by a damaged gene, for starters, (“some feminists” does not equal “feminists” - you have to be quite clear about these things) and to suggest that just because I identify myself with the same label as her means I endorse everything she says, is shoddy reasoning. Very shoddy. Do you agree with everyone either completely or not at all? Are there no shades of grey in your world? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/135 "2003-10-23T21:03:35Z")
[Here’s your Erin Pizzey cite, morgan. Enjoy.](http://www.menweb.org/pizzey.htm) “There are as many violent women as men, but there’s a lot of money in hating men, particularly in the United States – millions of dollars. It isn’t a politically good idea to threaten the huge budgets for women’s refuges by saying that some of the women who go into them aren’t total victims.” – Erin Pizzey ---
**Author:** ![Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krisfer_the_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/136 "2003-10-24T01:04:45Z")
All I gotta say about this thread is I REALLY, REALLY want to go screw the daylights outta my hubby! Yeah, bring on that nasty, violent penetrative sex!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/137 "2003-10-24T05:00:39Z")
My wife watches football more than I do. That’s a great way to turn the tables on men, by the way. If your wife starts telling you about the injuries on the team your favorite team is going to play next week, the power balance has shifted in a very subtle but important way. If, OTOH, you switch to Trading Spaces in the middle of the playoffs. Well, watch your back. Trixie is movin in. Yes, it’s all about football. Here, crush up this oxycontin. That should clear things up. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/138 "2003-10-25T03:26:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ll provide a cite when Andy does, sweetie. Nice of you to hold two different people to two different standards, though. And I have to say, it’s just incredibly amusing to watch you get all literal-minded over the Robin Morgan thing. First off, I’m not your ‘sweetie’. Second, **Andy** has already provided actual quotes from leaders in the feminist movement and prominent feminist authors to back up his opinion of feminism. Third, you’re the one who fucked up, and you didn’t admit to it until it was pointed out to you that you had put words in my mouth. I responded to what you said because, get this, I’m not a fucking mind reader. > [@](#): > > Heh. Those jackbooted feminists strike again! And oh my goodness, here we have unnamed feminists who are afraid to go out of doors! Why, someone who uses Christina Hoff-Summers and defends Andy just must be fair! Especially when they say stuff like this: I’d recommend that you go talk to them yourself if it weren’t a matter of inter-message-board-war starting. Course, you’re a big girl, go do a websearch for feminist message boards and I’m sure you’ll find lots of ‘feminists’ discussing how afraid they are to go outside alone. > [@](#): > > Gee, I’m sure incredibly sexist guys just love working with feminists who call them on their bullshit. I’m just sure of it. Along with their little female cheerleaders. **Andy** seems like the kind of person who treats people the same whether they have a dick or not, which is of course totally contrary to your ‘I’ve got a vagina, so you big bad men owe me something’ chip upon your shoulder. I really doubt **Andy** would have a problem with it _if called on bullshit he actually committed_ rather than just having you rant and wail at him because he’s male and therefore automatically a guilty son of a bitch who owes you something. “As a sex, we are vastly superior to men, but it is taboo to show it.” -Kate Saudners, Feminist Author, The Sunday Times, July 16, 1995. > [@](#): > > Definitions… MAN: An obsolete life form, an ordinary creature who needs to be watched, a contradictory baby-man; MISANDRY: A refusal to suppress the evidence of one’s experience with men, A woman’s defense against fear and pain, An affirmation of the cathartic effects of justifiable anger; STRANGERS: Unknowns who, if male, are not to be trusted. Knowns are not to be trusted either; TESTOSTERONE POISONING: … Until now it has been thought that the level of testosterone in men is normal simply because they have it. But if you consider how abnormal their behavior is, then you are led to the hypothesis that almost all men are suffering from “testosterone poisoning.” Kramarae and Treichler, _A Feminist Dictionary_ 1985 > [@](#): > > In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent Catharine MacKinnon, Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women’s Studies, pg 129 How many prominent feminists who lead the feminist movement have to be quoted? These are the people that the Campus Women’s Organization, that NOW, that Ms. Magazine readers and editors and writers follow, whose words they quote, whose books they read, and whose ideals they hold. And it’s a long tired argument to say ‘you can’t criticize feminism because not all of them are like that.’ Not all KKK members burn crosses, either, but that doesn’t lend any credibility to the KKK movement as a whole. Feminism is screwed, and its self professed leaders got it there. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/139 "2003-10-25T15:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\* > How many prominent feminists who lead the feminist movement have to be quoted? > \*\* If you could come up with one, that would be a good beginning. I mean, MacKinnon? Please. Her name always gets trotted out in debates like this, but I have yet to meet any feminist of any stripe who actually thinks very well of her. She certainly doesn’t “lead the feminist movement”. MacKinnon owes her high profile to the fact that she tends to say weird and controversial things, and _anti_-feminists love to quote her (often out of context) because of it. I’m sure she must have her fans, but I have never met one. The closest I’ve heard to support for her among feminists is “yeah, she’s pretty wacky, but not really as bad as the right-wingers would have you believe” or “some of her ideas are interesting, but she really goes too far”. If the opposing side didn’t give her so much attention, I think MacKinnon and her work would be almost completely unknown. Several of the other names mentioned are women I haven’t even heard of, so I suspect they’re also far more important to anti-feminists than feminists. Many of the women quoted here certainly are not \*\* > [@](#): > > the people that the Campus Women’s Organization, that NOW, that Ms. Magazine readers and editors and writers follow, whose words they quote, whose books they read, and whose ideals they hold. \*\* If they were, I would know about it. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889/140 "2003-10-25T17:35:14Z")
Macalandra, so? She says that ‘there are as many violent women in the US as there are men,’ but who cares? She doesn’t live or work here. I’ll check out the link later, though. I have to go count up all the names Andy is using that being with “M”. Poor dear, he’s obviously hoping to keep track of the voices in his head by giving them names. If he doesn’t use my name, he’s shit out of luck. catsix, sweetie, until Andy provides a cite for his shit, and until you get a clue about the fact that he’s not providing a cite, why, yes, indeed, you are a sweetie. > [@](#): > > First off, I’m not your ‘sweetie’. Second, Andy has already provided actual quotes from leaders in the feminist movement and prominent feminist authors to back up his opinion of feminism. Third, you’re the one who fucked up, and you didn’t admit to it until it was pointed out to you that you had put words in my mouth. I responded to what you said because, get this, I’m not a fucking mind reader. Snerk. See Cowgirl’s post above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-please-explain-the-concept-of-feminazi-to-me/207889.md?page=8)