# Conservative dopers -- why do you think the SDMB leans left? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 29, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218 "2016-09-29T16:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/81 "2016-10-01T03:46:41Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > …Take abortion. Science can tell us a lot about fetal development but it is silent on when a fetus turns into a human deserving rights. My personal belief is that it when a fetus can feel pain, but that is purely subjective and I have no real strong feelings on the subject. However, on the 'Dope, those who are anti-abortion are called women haters and all sorts of other things because the underlying assumption is that a fetus isn’t a human until some abitrary length of gestation has been met… But there’s more to be said here. Of course the ethical issues surrounding abortion are not empirical & objective scientific questions, but that doesn’t imply that all possible views are therefore equally reasonable. It’s certainly a subtle and complex question exactly what rights a developing unborn human should have at what stage, and how those rights should be balanced against the rights of the mother. But (for example) a view that a single celled zygote should have the same rights as a mature human based on evidence-free superstitious nonsense that it has been imbued with a soul by a sky-fairy is deserving of ridicule, and deeply harmful to rational discourse on a difficult ethical question. And how about the closely related opposition to stem cell research? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/82 "2016-10-01T04:09:38Z")
You also have to take into account legitimate slippery slope arguments though. One of the criticism pro-lifers have had about pro-choicers is that it’s mainstreaming a culture of death. So you get into situations where we’re now helping depressed people commit suicide rather than trying to cure their depression: > **[The right to die in Belgium: An inside look at the world's most liberal...](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/right-die-belgium-inside-worlds-liberal-euthanasia-laws)** > > Belgium has the world’s most liberal law on physician-assisted suicide, which is not just for the terminally ill. Patients with psychiatric conditions – and now, even children – can request euthanasia. Surveys in Belgium show overwhelming public... ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/83 "2016-10-01T04:24:20Z")
The connection between the issues is unclear at best. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/84 "2016-10-01T05:22:42Z")
But there’s no scientific way to find out, other than to note that there are no countries where abortion is illegal but euthanasia is. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/85 "2016-10-01T05:28:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > To paraphrase Colbert, reality has a well-known atheist bias. Hardly a paraphrase of his actual statement and a bit ironic given that he is, himself, a deeply religious person. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/86 "2016-10-01T05:45:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But there’s no scientific way to find out, other than to note that there are no countries where abortion is illegal but euthanasia is. Well, by that standard there are any number of “notes” one can make. The U.S. is one of the most religious of the western democracies. It’s also one of the only western democracies that has the death penalty. We could make a note of that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/87 "2016-10-01T05:58:06Z")
Our abortion laws are also probably the most liberal, or among the most liberal, in the world. In most European countries you have to ask permission to get an abortion after the first trimester or so. Although that’s not so hard to explain. Due to our religious nature, we don’t do nuance so well. Our Constitution enshrines certain rights and those rights are a lot closer to absolute than they are anywhere else. So when a court says a certain thing is a right, that’s pretty much it. It just happens that Christians don’t always like the rights judges choose to recognize. But you can see progressions in many places. Gun control is another example. Countries that ban guns usually also end up restricting pepper sprays, combat and hunting knives, batons, stun guns, etc. Sometimes the slope is real. or at least there is enough evidence to support certain people being really worried. You know who else doesn’t like euthanasia? Disabled rights groups. They have a very real fear of where that’s going to end up, since it’s a VERY short step from people being allowed to choose it for themselves to others being allowed to choose for them if they are judged mentally unfit to decide. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/88 "2016-10-01T06:01:28Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > So tell me, what scientific process decided that murder is wrong? Which science decided that pumping convicted murders full of electricity until they are dead is morally just? Which science decided that bombing Hiroshima with a nuke was so bad that nukes ought not ever be used again while nothing is said of the munitions used to firebomb Dresden? > > While science is useful for understanding how things work and how to accomplish certain things, it is morally neutral. The fact that if you take two seperate pieces of urainum that have a total mass of greater than 15 kilograms and slam them together for a short period of time leads to a chain reaction that releases huge amounts of energy is science. > Science is silent on whether or not dropping an atomic bomb on a city is a moral or just thing to do. > > Politics is, at its base, a moral concern where subjective bias is king. > > What I suspect runs off most conservatives is that on this board many subjective subjects are treated as objectively true and anyone who disagrees with these ‘truths’ are treated like shit. > > Take abortion. Science can tell us a lot about fetal development but it is silent on when a fetus turns into a human deserving rights. My personal belief is that it when a fetus can feel pain, but that is purely subjective and I have no real strong feelings on the subject. However, on the 'Dope, those who are anti-abortion are called women haters and all sorts of other things because the underlying assumption is that a fetus isn’t a human until some abitrary length of gestation has been met. > > So, science is useful but jn a limited scope. Outside of that scope philosophy and religon are what people generally use to make decisions. > > Slee, who happens to be an athiest. Ethics is a field of study of philosophy, separate from both science and religion. You don’t need to be religious to be ethical. And, believe me, I’ve seen a multitude of ‘religious’ people whose ethics were, shall we say, highly questionable? ISiddiqui was claiming that because science as a system supposedly rests on a series of subjective precepts that it is not valid, which is flat-out BS. It proves itself every day, which religion can never be said to do, at least not while one is alive. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/89 "2016-10-01T06:07:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But you can see progressions in many places. Gun control is another example. Countries that ban guns usually also end up restricting pepper sprays, combat and hunting knives, batons, stun guns, etc. Sometimes the slope is real. or at least there is enough evidence to support certain people being really worried. If you want to seriously debate those effects, let’s compare violent crimes rates in the U.S. versus other nations, though not necessarily in this thread. > [@](#): > > You know who else doesn’t like euthanasia? Disabled rights groups. They have a very real fear of where that’s going to end up, since it’s a VERY short step from people being allowed to choose it for themselves to others being allowed to choose for them if they are judged mentally unfit to decide. And their concerns may well be reasonable, but what does it have to do with abortion? For that matter, Canada’s abortion laws are _so_ liberal… _we don’t have any laws at all!_ If the slope was that slippery, we’d be in a perpetual state of Purge. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/90 "2016-10-01T06:29:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If you want to seriously debate those effects, let’s compare violent crimes rates in the U.S. versus other nations, though not necessarily in this thread. We don’t need to, because the argument would have little basis in science anyway. Science can tell us certain facts about the situation, such as, the fact that crime is lower in most Western countries than in the US. What it can’t tell us is whether people have the right to defend themselves, which has nothing to do with the level of crime in a given place. I live in one of the safest cities in the country, yet women carrying pepper spray or stun guns is pretty common and I’m not sure what moral policy justification there is for denying women such equalizers. I’m also not sure what public policy goal is accomplished by preventing civilians from owning such things. Were European countries suffering from a rash of innocent people getting pepper sprayed? > [@](#): > > And their concerns may well be reasonable, but what does it have to do with abortion? For that matter, Canada’s abortion laws are _so_ liberal… _we don’t have any laws at all!_ If the slope was that slippery, we’d be in a perpetual state of Purge. I don’t know how much disabled rights groups care about abortion, but Christian conservatives see a Culture of Death as some call it. BTW, since the death penalty was mentioned, there’s even a slippery slope there. In places where the death penalty has been abolished, many have also abolished life sentences. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/91 "2016-10-01T07:21:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We don’t need to, because the argument would have little basis in science anyway. Science can tell us certain facts about the situation, such as, the fact that crime is lower in most Western countries than in the US. What it can’t tell us is whether people have the right to defend themselves, which has nothing to do with the level of crime in a given place. I live in one of the safest cities in the country, yet women carrying pepper spray or stun guns is pretty common and I’m not sure what moral policy justification there is for denying women such equalizers. I’m also not sure what public policy goal is accomplished by preventing civilians from owning such things. Were European countries suffering from a rash of innocent people getting pepper sprayed? I dunno. Get some cites. > [@](#): > > I don’t know how much disabled rights groups care about abortion, but Christian conservatives see a Culture of Death as some call it. I’m sure they call a lot of things a lot of things. > [@](#): > > BTW, since the death penalty was mentioned, there’s even a slippery slope there. In places where the death penalty has been abolished, many have also abolished life sentences. So have crime rates or recidivism rates gone up as a result? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/92 "2016-10-01T07:47:41Z")
Don’t know, but I don’t know why that would be relevant to all people. Sometimes the facts don’t adequately decide an issue. If you see the purpose of prison as rehabilitation, then recidivism rates are an important fact. If you think it’s about punishment, or “justice”, whatever that means in that context, then it wouldn’t matter. That’s why applying science and empiricism to political questions isn’t often very useful. If I was building this board, I wouldn’t even have a politics section actually, except for some Great Debates about issues where facts actually matter, like climate change, economic policy, government effectiveness, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/93 "2016-10-01T10:06:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Don’t know, but I don’t know why that would be relevant to all people. Sometimes the facts don’t adequately decide an issue. Yes, I can see that in the effort to link abortion to anything bad, however tenuous the connection. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/94 "2016-10-01T17:15:18Z")
I suspect the anti-GMO, and to an extent the anti-vaxx liberals as well, are motivated by a deep mistrust of big business. I think people of all political stripes tend to trust the government when it does what they want and mistrust it when it doesn’t. Remember “l love it or leave it”? Now it’s “make America great again.” I’m sure the left has had similarly contradictory slogans. And don’t even get me started “liberals think their opponents need to be smarter and conservatives think their opponents need to be more moral” thing. I’ve been saying that for longer than I can remember. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/95 "2016-10-01T19:50:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > ??? Is this second sentence a joke? How is using the scientific method evidence of heartlessness or a lack of empathy? I’m saying that’s how conservatives view it. The empirical observer attributes nothing to divine action. The empirical observer says “I see two cells dividing,” not “I see the miracle of life taking place.” This goes way back to when Galileo’s scientific observations were thought as blasphemy by the Church. Galileo could have been the most warmhearted person on Earth, but the prevailing religion saw him as an enemy to their cause. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/96 "2016-10-01T21:36:52Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > I’m saying that’s how conservatives view it. Aren’t you conflating conservative with religious? [About 13%](http://harvardpolitics.com/united-states/conservative-atheists/) of atheists and agnostics self-identify as conservative. Are there not many religious Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/97 "2016-10-01T22:37:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BTW, since the death penalty was mentioned, there’s even a slippery slope there. In places where the death penalty has been abolished, many have also abolished life sentences. I need to see a cite on this. I’m not aware of _any_, let alone _many_. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/98 "2016-10-02T00:55:41Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Aren’t you conflating conservative with religious? [About 13%](http://harvardpolitics.com/united-states/conservative-atheists/) of atheists and agnostics self-identify as conservative. Are there not many religious Democrats? I’m talking about a fundamental aversion Conservatives have to science, and by extension, liberals. That’s the root of the left-leaning political nature of this board. Are 13% percent of the SDMB conservatives atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/99 "2016-10-02T03:56:49Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > I’m talking about a fundamental aversion Conservatives have to science, and by extension, liberals. I don’t really agree with this notion. Certain _types_ of conservatives are anti-science to one degree or another and I agree there are certainly more of them than anti-science liberals. But I can’t in anyway regard it as ‘fundamental’ to conservatism. I’ve known too many conservative scientists. > [@](#): > > Are 13% percent of the SDMB conservatives atheists? No, but I’m pretty sure we’ve had more than one ( I can think of one off the top of my head, but I think I’m just blanking on names on others ). ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218/100 "2016-10-02T04:03:50Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > I’m talking about a fundamental aversion Conservatives have to science, and by extension, liberals. That’s the root of the left-leaning political nature of this board. Are 13% percent of the SDMB conservatives atheists? Secular conservative here. I have an engineering degree for whatever worth that is. My reasons for rightward leaning have to do with the rejection of the premise that spending other people’s money to pay people not to work is somehow a virtue. I believe people like any other organism respond to the environment and to sets of incentives. There are certain behaviors that I feel shouldn’t be highly rewarded. I don’t need college women’s approval to have an opinion. I’m married and don’t need to impress co-eds with my compassion or sensitivity. I know a lot of conservatives in the engineering field. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-dopers-why-do-you-think-the-sdmb-leans-left/767218.md?page=6)