Conservative groups spend up to $1bn a year to fight action on climate change

There is a reason why deniers like you demand just the words of an anonymous poster from a message board, and that is to avoid dealing with the history and the science.

To begin with, do you take back your say so that ‘this is not science’?

Are you **now **aware of why your idea of assigning this to orbital forcing was not a good one?

Do you really think it is ok to ignore history and repeat the mistakes of ignoring what was discussed in the past and how the real men of science did deal with the nits of the issue in the past?

Do YOU really think it’s Ok to deny and lie about things you just said on a message board, that anyone can link to and see?

What right do you have to talk about accuracy in science? We can all see how much you actually care about accuracy.

You do not know BTW means uh? It means By the way, it is a followup to the quote you are using to call me liar, I will let others to conclude if your omission is an honest one.

Once again here is the quote that should follow (and indeed I posted right away to clarify that I was not approving of the 1 billion number:

BTW :slight_smile: you should read the post of mhendo, as I pointed before I agree with him, your poison tongue is only poisoning you right now.

No, of course it depends on who is just not paying attention. Everyone can see the post I made right away to clarify and you are denying it is there.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16954654&postcount=7

As it is your denial of the post of **mhendo **and my support for it.

So indeed, I’m sorry for assuming that you are honest.

Holy shit, I had no idea Bricker was also a climate change denier. I guess he could just be a partisan hack and quibbling with GIGO over a relatively trivial bit, but the generalized strategy of harping on a relative banality as if that wrong element deflates more than its actual worth is part and parcel for the denier’s media strategy. Wow.

Yes, mhendo posted, and you agreed with him. In post #7.

That’s not in dispute.

Do you imagine that this somehow erases your earlier posts?

You don’t get to change your mind and then pretend that’s what you meant all along.

You made posts BEFORE post #7 – what about them?

:rolleyes:

I was commenting on my main point, the “scholars” they use have conflicts of interest galore. That and that the money used to defeat even Republicans that do follow the science was and is no small potatoes.

Once again, let the record show that you are not even sorry or apologizing for your poison tongue and straw-maning.

Oh well it is Christmas, let me defend him here. :slight_smile:

I tell you that he has in the past asked questions about it but on a previous encounter we had he is reasonable, IIRC it was about Cuccinelli and his inquisition of climate researcher Michael Man on that thread Bricker showed to me that he is a guy that was open to the science and did criticize then Virginia Attorney General Cuccinelli for that stunt. Other times he has show a lot of doubt but he does pull back when confronted with the evidence.

What we have here is just a misunderstanding, we will see if he does take back all that colorful runny rhetoric launched at me, but I do not care much when the evidence here shows who is not paying attention.

You haven’t answered my question … can you explain to me, in your own words, exactly why CO2 in the atmosphere causes the [average] temperature of the entire atmosphere to increase? If the answer is “no”, then it is not science, you’re just aping your scholarly priesthood. If the answer is “yes”, then please do so … serious … I honestly want to know.

My hypothesis for Climate Change:
Since the Earth doesn’t orbit the sun in a mathematically exact ellipse, the small variations cause the entire orbit to become smaller, then larger, then smaller … When the orbit is smaller, the atmosphere’s temperature rises due to more solar energy being received; larger orbit, less energy, lower temperatures. The rise in CO2 content at higher temperature is simply a higher content equilibrium state.
was not stated to be good, just dis-provable. Thank you elucidator for fully demonstrating this about my hypothesis.

Radiative fluxes are accounted for in my hypothesis. Plass give 8.3 W/m^2 for CO2, but the article doesn’t state what the total flux is for the atmosphere as a whole. Is there a table showing the relative fluxes of the various constituents? Wouldn’t we want LESS flux if we wanted HIGHER temperatures?

C’mon now, how hard is it for you to just simply explain yourself?

I passed Calculus 399, Gradients, but that’s somewhat superfluous to the current discourse.

AFAIK there is a limit on how warm the earth can get, incidentally that 10,000 PPM point is a really peculiar number, I have seen it many times in denier sources in sorry attempts at avoiding with the issue, it is mostly related to how well plants will like that level, but ignores that humans begin to get dizzy at those concentrations and it is likely that long term exposure at it can be poisonous. What those deniers and you are doing here is to make an item that was made to generate misleading answers.

The best way to realize that CO2 has not reformed from its rogue days is to look at Paleoclimate and see what the temperature was when higher levels of CO2 where in the atmosphere and what happened when there was a sudden increase.

http://www.earthgauge.net/wp-content/CF_Tertiary.pdf

BTW if your standard for something to be science requires a poster on the internet to show it you are really lost, it is the science who you have to look at and deal with.

And as it was shown to be lacking, you have to ask yourself “why did the ones telling that that was a great idea lied to me?” Not holding my breath to see you follow that with your sources.

[quote=“watchwolf49, post:89, topic:677029”]

Radiative fluxes are accounted for in my hypothesis. Plass give 8.3 W/m^2 for CO2, but the article doesn’t state what the total flux is for the atmosphere as a whole. Is there a table showing the relative fluxes of the various constituents? Wouldn’t we want LESS flux if we wanted HIGHER temperatures?

C’mon now, how hard is it for you to just simply explain yourself?
As you are showing here, Plass is not the end of it, the nattering Plass got means that today changes in the approach and more information is used by scientists to report why you are not right. The Scientific American article were Realclimate links to has the references to the past and current research…

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/id.8374,y.2010,no.1,content.true,page.1,css.print/issue.aspx

Oh, please. I’m not in the least a climate change denier. I admit I do not have the expertise to independently evaluate the totality of the evidence, but I am absolutely willing to accept the overwhelming scientific consensus: things are getting hotter, and mankind’s activity is contributing to that trend.

But this is not a “relatively trivial bit.” The OP starts out by claiming, in the title, that there’s a BILLION dollars being used to fund anti-AGW work. In post #4, I criticize the gross methodology error that was used to derive that figure, and ask GIGO if that criticism is valid.

He answers, “Don’t think so when right away they ignore that the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) was offering scientists and economists $10,000 each to write articles critical of the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report on climate change.”

That’s absolutely and utterly wrong.

He could have said, “Well, AEI is not blameless: they do offer scientists and economists $10,000 each to write articles critical of the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report on climate change. But the criticism you raise is correct: it’s not a billion dollars.”

Why can’t he simply do that? He acts like any concession of error on his part, no matter how tiny, will result in severe beatings and malnourishment.

Seriously: I agree it’s a tangential point, but why is GIGO immune from having to admit that yes, he was wrong? Why can’t he type those words? I’ve done it. Many times, alas. Why can’t he?

The fact that he can’t is what is causing me to continue to harp on the point. I’m not going to give me the chance to simply stop defending the point and act like his error never happened.

So tell me, Rhythmdvl – are YOU a denier of the plain facts? Am I incorrect in anything I said above?

Of course, getting on the subject at hand, it should be clear that I’m not backing the OP’s article, I continue to make the point that many other researches noticed all the money and misleading research that was used to influence the politicians in America, not as huge as the OP paper reports, but it is really naive to assume that all that money has not opened many doors and access to power.

As I pointed before, it is dishonest to minimize what is going on, as Naomi Oreskes can tell you, this movie already happened before with the tobacco industry and it should be noticed that many of the same think thanks and even their scientists got also involved in the denial of climate change science. Simple logic should tell us that being a scientist on an issue like Tobacco smoke does not mean that magically you are an expert on all subjects, and that by “coincidence” their research in other subjects ends up supporting the use of products or materials that in reality produce harm.

Personal indeed, as we can see here, contrarians do reach very quickly for personal attacks and want to pretend that therefore now everyone will ignore that the science is still not coming as they claim and there is still a lot of money that is being used to artificially prop up organizations, scientists and politicians that are misleading the American people.

Read again, you are dead wrong that I’m defending the OP’s paper, There was a quick follow up to that post that you continue to claim was not part of the reply. I continue to make the point that it is **also **naive and dishonest to claim that very little is being done by those think thanks and organizations.

But it seems that you are stuck in making the point that you are not capable of paying attention, read mhendo’s post again, only a deluded fellow would continue to claim that I never agreed with his assessment of the OP.

Well Rhythmdvl, I must admit that I should not have defended **Bricker **there. Doubling down so as to not ever apologize for a misunderstanding is bad enough, but clearly continuing to press for satisfaction (and on the pit) shows that you may be partially correct, he will find a nit so as to never deal with what others in the past found out.

As I pointed before the research of the OP confirmed what others reported better in the past, the number mentioned was really unnecessary and misleading. Ignoring what was found before was also noticeable in the criticism that Bricker posted early, groups like the AEI are not doing this with mega millions, but they are not “just doing little”.

American Enterprise Institute

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Enterprise_Institute

GIGObuster … you don’t know do you? To believe in something you cannot explain is as near to religious dogma as to make no difference.

[deadpan stare] You don’t honestly believe that Oxygen and Nitrogen are radiatively inert at Earth’s blackbody radiation levels … do you … please … because it would really break my heart if you did believe this. What the hell are you taking about Biology interfering with thermodynamics? Look, it’s okay to not know, I certainly don’t. But if you prance around saying you do, makes you look ignorant.

The fallback here is the advertisment on that SciAm link, I agree in every way that you’d be far far better off setting up business in Kentucky, because Silicon Valley will be underwater some day. I can see why Kentucky paid SciAm to post this article. Which brings me back to the OP … these screw-balls don’t have a billion bucks … commercial media has a billion bucks … dutifully distributed as dividends. I see absolutely nothing corrupt or deceitful in the practice [ka’ching].

And thanks for showing the stupid in you, I knew you would, that is like a Godwin, when contrarians reach for that explanation of this being a religion it only shows that you have no good arguments.

The explanation was posted already, unless you can show that CO2 has amended its ways from the past, there is already data that shows what temperature it will be seen with an increase of CO2.

What you deny also here is that experts do exist. NO ONE CAN KNOW EVERYTHING. However, one can see what academics and people that for a living look at pseudosience can make of this, and non-political organizations that look at this issue (can you believe it, they ask the scientists) like the Skeptic reports that indeed it is the denial of what CO2 does in the atmosphere what is the pseudoscience.

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/how-we-know-global-warming-is-real/

And as Scientific American reports, you are still wrong. I do not just believe on this just for shits and giggles I got involved on this by realizing how stupid the attracts on Michael Mann and others regarding the Hockey stick were.

Do you honestly believe that your strawman will fly here? You are now a dunce X2

And there is the derp X3

Scientists do report that the rise will happen but not soon enough for your Lex Luthor like dream.

By the way, you are still not answering these items:

Do you take back your say so that ‘this is not science’?

Are you now aware of why your idea of assigning this to orbital forcing was not a good one?

Do you really think it is ok to ignore history and repeat the mistakes of ignoring what was discussed in the past and how the real men of science did deal with the nits of the issue in the past?

And really, if you are correct then it follows that when things break the user of the thing that got broken should never be capable of consulting the proper experts, it seems to me that you are claiming that it is a mystery or that it is impossible for someone to check who has the most reliable information.

You need to remind yourself that if you ever get really sick to not tell yourself that because you do not know the very specific way some stomach enzymes work that therefore you should assume that gastroenterologists are full of it and then it is the herbalist that should be consulted.

So, Merry Christmas and watch out for that stuffing, it was not well cooked. :slight_smile:

Am I allowed to know beforehand what ways I am to amend?

I’ve called it religious dogma … ummm … no, that’s about it from me … perhaps this will help: “You are a stupid motherfucker” … I don’t know … you can’t explain it … what do you want me to think?

elucidator says he has dis-proof in hand … I haven’t called him on it … it’s about the absorption spectrum I believe … I know it’s unscientific to admit error, but there you go, so sue me. Wierd, I actually agree with you on the OP … fucking wierd

This X 1 trillion.

He doesn’t like hearing this and tries to pooh-pooh it, but it is the plain truth. He’s not stupid, I don’t think, deep down, but his religion just won’t allow him to question certain things. And he certainly can’t come out and directly answer a simple question posed to him, most recently by Bricker. And I think he thinks that if he cleanly and honorably admits error in this area he’ll go up in flames like a sun spot or that Al Gore will send some henchman to kill him.

He blusters about on these boards as a “man of science”, yet all he does is try to discredit any cite that is not—guess what?—in support of his position. :roll eyes: That’s his schtick. I suggest you don’t waste your time with him. Just look at the bullshit with Bricker. How many exchanges that had to go back and forth, how many times things had to be repeated and spoon-fed to him, and all for naught. For an even better example, go look at FX’s climate thread in the forum. He got his ass kicked like a rag doll by someone who knows about more about the science than he does and he ran away. No one, no thing, can penetrate the man’s faith. He is a true believer. He will not be dissuaded.

The best reply to every post of his on this subject is, “Amen. Preach it brother!”

Ah yes, just bullshit indeed from you.

I do not care what you need to think, I post to inform others about what the science and the scientists are telling us.

What I do remember is that Plass and others found that it was until they came along that the absorption spectrum of CO2 was not as it was though to be to be.

In any case the absorption spectrum is not the only reason why scientists report on why CO2 has a big role on climate: