# Conservative Hatred for Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555 "2004-01-22T01:39:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/21 "2004-01-22T10:46:26Z")
**Manhattean** , as a European I would dismiss most parts of **Rashak** ’s list as not significant. However, he has some points: > [@manhattan](#): > > - Sex as a normal thing: What? Europeans are much less prude then US regarding sex. Here you can stay in your girlfriend/boyfriends house and sleep in his/her room w/o parents objecting. Here sex is discussed openly in the society, on televison etc. > [@manhattan](#): > > - Religion mixed with Politics (Germany is a possible exception): Many European countries have an official state religion, funded with tax dollars. And they sure don’t mind mixing religion with politics when it comes to banning religions they don’t like. In France there is a very strict separation between church and religion. However, the head-scarf discussion shows some cultural problems between muslims and non-muslim French. IMHO that’s more cultural than religious. > [@manhattan](#): > > - Big differences in earnings of the Rich vs. Poor: Well, except that many of the more dynastic fortunes exist in Europe, some extending hundreds of years and some so rich they get to call themselves royalty! The point is, taxing the rich is more widespread accepted in Europe than in the US, IMHO. Taxes in general are more accepted. > [@manhattan](#): > > - Media monopolies: European media is much, much more concentrated than in the United States, a remnant of when much, most or even all of the broadcast media was (or is) state-owned. I don’t know that, but looking at US and European TV, I quickly see the difference: In Europe there are less commercials, more contents; And, the most important thing: politicians are actually critizied, i.e. the ruling ones! I never saw that in the US yet… Whether all this is a reason for “conservative hatred” is unclear. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/22 "2004-01-22T11:23:17Z")
Well, the OP tells me I know what they mean and Brutus says its difficult to know what the OP means. I still say it’s irrational to hate a landmass, which doesn’t, I suppose, preclude American conservatives from so “hating – at least given the way they are often caricatured. Fwiw, most people find it easier to work with specific policies and individual countries or defined groups of countries as reasons, rationales and agendas why neo cons would “hate” a policy will vary from issue to issue – anyway, I don’t see why Canada or Australia or any other first world, capitalist, Christian, predominately white Anglo-Saxon country should be excluded as they’re little different from European countries It’s either the USA that’s _out there_, or the rest of the comparable world e.g. it ain’t me, it’s everyone else, Matron. Sorry, the terms of the debate make not enough sense. 'least for me. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/23 "2004-01-22T11:38:48Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Well, I was actually formulating a measured response to the question, but since the usual hate machine crowd has showed up so soon, I’ll just stick to dispelling some of the factual errors that have occurred in the very first post. > > - Gays and Lesbians openly: Well, except for Romania, Algeria, The Vatican, Austria, **Ireland, shall I go on?** 2 posters posted before you. They are a crowd are they? You’re pretty much part of your own hate machine BTW you just hate something different than them. I bolded the bit about Ireland because you seem to know what you’re talking about. Or are you just jumping to conclusions because of the Catholic Church and Ireland? Ireland has a very open gay culture now. While marriage isn’t available we were don’t have laws outlawing gay sex etc > [@](#): > > Homosexuality decriminalised in Ireland: > > The Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993, which repealed > the legislation inherited from before Independence > prohibiting all homosexual acts between males, came into > effect on 7th July 1993, the day that the Irish President, > Mary Robinson, signed it. In this way, the campaign that the > Irish gay and lesbian community had started some twenty > years earlier finally achieved its objective: the > elimination from the criminal law of all discrimination > against homosexuality. > > The new law has been universally welcomed by the Irish > lesbian and gay community, notably because it sets the same > “age of consent” in the case of penetrative acts, 17 years, > for young men as for young women. Unlike the partial > decriminalisation adopted in England and Wales in 1967, the > new law in Ireland sets no special conditions of privacy or > age. As is mentioned below, such restrictions were among the > options initially considered by the Irish government [Here](http://www.qrd.org/qrd/world/europe/ireland/homosexuality.decriminalized-01.21.94) . There are many gay clubs in Dublin and gay TV presenters on the National Channel. There are homophobic asswipes who do nasty things but name a country that doesn’t have that? So please do go on? As to the OP a lot of Americans are anti European in the same way a lot of Europeans are anti the US. There are many reasons for this, political, a section of each side thinking they have a superior culture/society and other such silly reasons. Mostly it’s brainless generalised bullshit but sometimes both sides make valid points. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/24 "2004-01-22T11:42:44Z")
I guess that the basic problem is that Europe, like most of the rest of the world, and like about half of the US doesn’t agree that it’s Bush’s place to be world dictator. What the neo-cons are doing is using a standard tool of nationalist politics. You have to have demons, real or imagined. It unites “us” against the “them”. The “with us or against us” stuff. France are against “us”. But when the neocons say that someone is against “us”, they mean that someone opposes the narrow agenda of the neocons. Of course they say it in such a way that the American pride is invoked, and most people interpret it as meaning that the someone is against the broader American populace. The message gets a bit confused when the exact same tactic is applied against them evil anti-American Democrats, or them evil anti-American traditional conservatives, or them evil anti-American libertarians. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![nicky2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/edb3f5/32.png) [@nicky2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/25 "2004-01-22T11:53:07Z")
Whenever anyone talls about “Europe”, one fears that an oversimplified, over-generalised flow of BS is on its way. There really aint no such thing as Europe. For example, conservative “dislike” of Europe is actually dislike of French and German policy. Not Britain. Or Italy. Or Spain. Or Eastern Europe… However, could there be a religious element to general anti-EU feeling? I remember that “Plain Truth” (weird fundie magazine) claimed that the EU is the ten-headed beast prophesized in Revelations. Is this a common view among fundamentalists - or does it jut represent the idiocy of a fringe of a fringe? ---
**Author:** ![Joachim\_Pieper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Joachim\_Pieper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joachim_Pieper)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/26 "2004-01-22T11:56:05Z")
Can Europe really be taken as a whole? Seems to me to be a simplification of the situation. Even over Iraq, attitudes to France and Britain were different in the U.S. (I assume). I’m not sure how other Europeans feel about being lumped together, but I rather think that fails to address most of the subtlety of the situation… Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/27 "2004-01-22T12:08:07Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Religion mixed with Politics (Germany is a possible exception): Many European countries have an official state religion, funded with tax dollars. And they sure don’t mind mixing religion with politics when it comes to banning religions they don’t like. What European country has **banned religions** and what country have official State religions. I ask because I don’t know and you seem to. While Ireland is quite a religious country, we have religion taught in school etc. Religion rarely shows it’s face in political life apart from abortion debates etc. Culturally religion isn’t as in your face as I’ve seen personally in the States and by anecdotal experiences told to me by both Europeans and Americans. 20-30 years ago it was a different story but not now > [@](#): > > From the [Irish Constitution](http://taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/297.htm) > Article 44 > > 1. The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion. > > 2. 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen. > > 2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion. > > 3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status. > > 4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school. > > 5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes. > > 6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation. ---
**Author:** ![Joachim\_Pieper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Joachim\_Pieper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joachim_Pieper)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/28 "2004-01-22T12:16:14Z")
Queen Elizabeth is the head of the Church of England, no? I would have thought that religion plays quite a prominent role in the politics of Northern Ireland… Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/29 "2004-01-22T12:20:07Z")
QEII is indeed head of the Church of England. However, the weird thing is that, despite there being an established religion (though there is total freedom of worship), _in practice_ in the UK religion intrudes into politics and daily life way way less than it does in the US, which has constitutionally protected SOCAS. Furthermore, the non-religious in the UK outnumber the religious by a large margin. Perhaps not the Vatican. BTW, the NI situation is only superficially religious. That’s just a convenient label for the opposing sides. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/30 "2004-01-22T12:27:37Z")
_If_ as the OP states, the American _right_ have a tendency to dislike Europe, wouldn’t it seem logical that it was because Europe (generally) is further _left_ on the political scale then the US? So they don’t hate Europe as a landmass/culture/whatever, they just don’t like left-wingers. Which is perfectly reasonable, hell, I don’t like right-wingers, but I don’t “hate the US”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/31 "2004-01-22T12:39:20Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > You want it in alphabetical order ? There are many reasons. Most Europeans for example accept: > > - Gays and Lesbians openly > - Gay Marriages Really? A few months ago I was watching a documentary on the Sundance channel. The makers of the film had given cameras to several lesbians in their late teens and over the course of a few years had them make video diaries. I really wish I could remember the name of the documentary and which country it was filmed in, maybe Denmark or Holland. What struck me most about the film was how similiar their difficulties were to that of American homosexual teens. They generally felt isolated, were afraid of coming out to their parents or friends, and the ones who lived in smaller towns felt much better once they moved to a large city. Maybe parts of Europe are better about accepting homosexuals but I wouldn’t say it’s all peachy over there. > [@](#): > > - Racial Differences So I guess all those Turks getting the crap kicked out of them in Germany was a fluke? > [@](#): > > - Uncontrolled Pollution > - Uncontrolled Greed I’m sorry, we don’t have any pollution laws here? What’s this about uncontrolled greed? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/32 "2004-01-22T12:44:08Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > What European country has **banned religions** and what country have official State religions. I ask because I don’t know and you seem to. A couple have banned Scientology, but I doubt that will draw tears here. [Quite a few European states either have an official state religion, or show preference for certain religions.](http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/c7599.htm) Finland: Double trouble! Evangelical Lutheran Church and the Orthodox Church. Greece: Eastern Orthodox Church of Christ Sweden: Church of Sweden Et cetera. Regardless, there is no widespread hatred among American conservatives of Europe in general (dislike of certain policies or certain aspects of certain European countries, sure). France, of course, is the exception. Not much nice to say about them these days. ---
**Author:** ![curly\_chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@curly\_chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curly_chick)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/33 "2004-01-22T12:46:01Z")
> [@Pepsi Classic](#): > > Why do conservatives has such hatred for Europe? I goes beyond the recent Iraq situation. There seems to feeling from conservative that Europe is an “evil” society and America should have nothing to do with it. Why is this? Is it not more to do with hating foreigners of all shades, if hate is indeed the word? Do these same conservatives clasp Asians and South Americans and Africans to the collective bosom? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/34 "2004-01-22T12:48:15Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > France, of course, is the exception. Not much nice to say about them these days. That’s as dumb as any other landmass hating. Surely you mean individual policies of the French government? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/35 "2004-01-22T12:48:53Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Regardless, there is no widespread hatred among American conservatives of Europe in general (dislike of certain policies or certain aspects of certain European countries, sure). France, of course, is the exception. Not much nice to say about them these days. That’s what I would expect. The France thing is BS IMO but disliking policies etc is fair play and quite normal. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/36 "2004-01-22T13:05:07Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > That’s as dumb as any other landmass hating. Surely you mean individual policies of the French government? It goes quite a bit further than simply gov’t policies with France. Anti-Americanism is no stranger in France, and reciprocity is to be expected. It’s not like I took a poll of all conservative American pundits, but I wouldn’t be suprised to find that many do not have much nice to say about France. (The people, the gov’t, the culture; At least in the south, the landmass is pretty nice.) But the other umpteen nations in Europe? Nothing even remotely approaching that. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/37 "2004-01-22T13:08:04Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > The France thing is BS IMO but disliking policies etc is fair play and quite normal. Brutus is simply a part of the neocon hive mind. He’s received his instructions, and he acts and speaks accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/38 "2004-01-22T13:09:23Z")
Quite - but still dumb. Furthermore, I don’t believe there was quite so much anti-Frenchism (?) in the US before the Iraq debacle was there? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/39 "2004-01-22T13:09:24Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Brutus is simply a part of the neocon hive mind. He’s received his instructions, and he acts and speaks accordingly. What the fuck does that stupid barb have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/40 "2004-01-22T13:12:29Z")
Yes, I believe conservatives do hate Europeans. They are generally xenophobic and dislike the notion that others may have ideas different than theirs. True, they don’t embrace South Americans, Africans, or Asians either. But the real venom is for the Europeans since they are white Christians too and in the conservative eye don’t have any excuse to be different than the American WASP. The conservative mindset is that there is one acceptable political orthodoxy. Deviation from this is forbidden and honest discussion about differing viewpoints is seen as needless. Look at Rush Limbaugh and his dittoheads. Conservatives don’t listen to his show to get information, they listen to have their preconceived ideas continuously reinforced. In Democratic oresidential debates, you hear honest discussions of the issues. In Republican presidential debates, it is a contest to see who can pledge the most fealty to the second half of the Second Amendment and pledge to spend the rest of their lives cutting taxes. Democratic conventions can be contentious and high spirited. Republicans conventions are based on the notion that any vote other than unanimous is a sign of weakness. If you think the Bush cabinet seeks out and welcomes free exchange of ideas, I suggest you ask former Secretary O’Neill about it. One can imagine Dick Cheney casting a stern eye across the cabinet table and like Harvey Korman in Blazing Saddles, pointing a finger and saying “I didn’t get a harrumph out of you.” Flying in the face of this conservative American desire for political conformity is the European tradition of tolerance of and working with people of different ideology. The conservative ideal of European behavior would be for the Europeans to simply genuflect and say “Yes, master” every time the American president makes a demand. That the Europeans do not do this is why conservatives hate Europeans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555.md?page=3)