# Conservative Hatred for Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555 "2004-01-22T01:39:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/41 "2004-01-22T13:14:09Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Quite - but still dumb. > > Furthermore, I don’t believe there was quite so much anti-Frenchism (?) in the US before the Iraq debacle was there? _9/11: The Big Lie_, a bestseller in France, came out well before Iraq, and that is probably about the time that anti-French feeling was really coming to a head, although it certainly existed to a degree before that. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/42 "2004-01-22T13:16:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > …Flying in the face of this conservative American desire for political conformity is the European tradition of tolerance of and working with people of different ideology. You are kidding, right? When did this ‘tradition’ begin? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/43 "2004-01-22T13:22:34Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > What the fuck does that stupid barb have to do with anything? Bush told you “France is bad, mmkay?” So at every opportunity you feel compelled to repeat the “France is bad, mmkay?” mantra. Unless you actually have some independent and cogent reason for the anti-France crap. Perhaps you could articulate it for us. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/44 "2004-01-22T13:29:49Z")
[QUOTE=Desmostylus] Bush told you “France is bad, mmkay?” So at every opportunity you feel compelled to repeat the “France is bad, mmkay?” mantra. [qUOTE] Ah, so that is the latest crazy theory the Leftist media is spreading, eh? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/45 "2004-01-22T13:30:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Unless you actually have some independent and cogent reason for the anti-France crap. Perhaps you could articulate it for us. 1. They didn’t buy the immediate threat bullshit. 2. They said as much 3. They did business with Iraq like most of the western world. 4. They didn’t say “Sir, yes sir” when the US came calling for men to die for it’s own self interest. 5. If you’re not with us you’re against us. 6. A lot of French people got on the stupid boat with a lot of Americans and started taking this shite personally. 7. Fucked if I can think of an **actual reason** but I’m sure somebody like our friend **Brutus** will fill us in. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/46 "2004-01-22T13:32:51Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Ah, so that is the latest crazy theory the Leftist media is spreading, eh? :rolleyes: No it’s the latest **Desmostylus** theory. Prove him wrong. Post **your** reasons against “The people, the gov’t, the culture” ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/47 "2004-01-22T13:35:57Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > No it’s the latest **Desmostylus** theory. Prove him wrong. Post **your** reasons against “The people, the gov’t, the culture” So that is how GD now works? Put forth theory _X_, and unless it is disproven, it is fact? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/48 "2004-01-22T13:36:30Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > You are kidding, right? When did this ‘tradition’ begin? Well, look at Cuba. American view: We don’t like your government. We won’t trade with you. We won’t allow our people to visit you. European view: We don’t like your government. Who cares, you may not like ours either. Can we buy some cigars? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/49 "2004-01-22T13:51:05Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > So that is how GD now works? Put forth theory _X_, and unless it is disproven, it is fact? Nope not at all. You were basically called a sheep. I asked you to try and show you’re not. I do believe that many Americans have true and valid reasons for not being overly enthused with France I merely asked you what where yours. Nicely dodged though. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/50 "2004-01-22T14:05:50Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Nope not at all. You were basically called a sheep. I asked you to try and show you’re not. I do believe that many Americans have true and valid reasons for not being overly enthused with France I merely asked you what where yours. > > Nicely dodged though. You no understand so me use small words. Make easy for you! 1) **Desmostylus** claim that GW tell me that France bad. 1. Me say like huh WTF!? 2. You say but he say it you unprove it or it the true. 3. So me say like WTF? He say, he prove. 4. So you say LOL you sheep you unprove or it true. That probably makes more sense to you. Assertions are either backed with facts, or mere opinion, at best. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/51 "2004-01-22T14:17:54Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. You say but he say it you unprove it or it the true Really did I say it was true? I seem to remember say it was a threoy of his. Answer don’t answer I really don’t give two shits. You’re one of the people who always harps on about the French. I don’t recall you ever saying why exactly other than the general crap you hear from a lot of yahoos on this boards. Now let us agree to misunderstand each others posts. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/52 "2004-01-22T14:23:33Z")
Oh and to see why lots of French/Europeans have a problem. It’s because they read things like [this](http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0745317081/ref%3Dsr%5Faps%5Fbooks%5F1%5F1/026-0790145-6518031). You should read it some time. Get to know the enemy and all that 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Joachim\_Pieper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Joachim\_Pieper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joachim_Pieper)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/53 "2004-01-22T14:26:03Z")
Meanwhile, weren’t we talking about Europe? This happens quuite a lot. We are now discussing the discussion. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/54 "2004-01-22T14:26:23Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > …Now let us agree to misunderstand each others posts. Sounds reasonable enough to me. My reasons for my views towards France may or may not match **Desmostylus’** checklist. Certainly I do not dislike _all_ French people or products (Of course, those people that put the goofy 9/11 conspiracy books on the best-seller lists in France are on my list, among others). But my reasons are my own, regardless of how many others may share them. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/55 "2004-01-22T14:29:39Z")
> [@Joachim Pieper](#): > > Meanwhile, weren’t we talking about Europe? > > This happens quuite a lot. We are now discussing the discussion. > > Cheers. Hell, this is being hijacked more than a 1960’s airliner near Cuba, so let me ask: Are named after the _Sturmbannfuhrer_, or some other Pieper? ---
**Author:** ![Joachim\_Pieper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Joachim\_Pieper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joachim_Pieper)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/56 "2004-01-22T14:35:26Z")
yeah, the SS guy. Didn’t exactly cover himself in glory in Russia, I’m told. Or in the Ardennes. Pretty good at his job, though. To go back to a post that’s way up on the first page, is it true that Americans perceive ‘Europe’ as less free? Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/57 "2004-01-22T14:36:59Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Well, look at Cuba. American view: We don’t like your government. We won’t trade with you. We won’t allow our people to visit you. European view: We don’t like your government. Who cares, you may not like ours either. Can we buy some cigars? Interesting. Did european countries participate in the embargo against South Africa? Or did they also take this “who cares” attitude then? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/58 "2004-01-22T14:43:18Z")
Less “free” than Americans, someone’s got to be kidding ??? God help us if we were less free. IMHO, the OP was a trainwreck from the first sentence; first define ‘Europe’, then we’ll need an example of this “hate” midset - presumably in relation to a particular governmental policy or regional culture, and we can, maybe, get somewhere. And no, I don’t “know” what the (OP) means. Really. ---
**Author:** ![cedric45](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@cedric45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cedric45)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/59 "2004-01-22T14:47:12Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > But if you can give me some examples of Liberal stupidity I’d be glad to read and laugh at them Here’s one from that senator from California, Diane Fartnstink… “Americans want a government that will take care of them.” :eek: I personally like Euros a lot. My friend Karsten is from Germany, several friends on my motorcycle email list are in Finland, Germany, the UK, the Netherlands and France. However the Frenchman, “Moose”, is so liberal he’s lost all touch with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/60 "2004-01-22T14:50:44Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > Intuitively I suppose we see these European countries as ‘modern’ anyway, something to aspire to. It is the direction that society has been moving ever since humans started grouping together - away from superstitious, survival based society focussing on basic needs. This, in a nutshell, is why many Americans dislike Europeans (even though I know you’re an Aussie, **antechinus** ). Actually, it’s mostly just France. The general arrogance and belief that they are the superior culture in the world - something that everyone should aspire to. And it’s been that way for several hundred years now. Many Americans see it as Europeans (read: France) unable to let go and realize that they are no longer as influential as they used to be. Indeed, when many on the other side of the pond speak of “multilateralism” they essentially mean, “do what the French and Germans say” and is essentially a way for them to exert as much influence as possible. It’s also the reason they are so insistent things go through the UN, WTO, etc. Those institutions allow them to exert more influence on world affairs relative to their actual power than otherwise. Which, to be honest, is fine. If my country were in a similar situation, I’d like to think they’d be smart enough to do the same. That said, **Mssr. Joachim** is correct. Europe as a whole is not hated. Witness the large numbers of American tourists that visit there every year - even to France. :eek: Nor do most Americans have anything bad to say about most European countries - even the most leftwing. Take Sweden, for example. Far more leftwing than France, but I seriously doubt you’d find anyone that had anything bad to say about it. Similar with Ireland, the Netherlands, Italy, Spain or a host of other European countries. And even, generally, Germany. Germany doesn’t take nearly the amount of flak that France does. And it has little to do with the Iraq thing, either. That was just icing on the cake. France has been the butt of jokes and degradations for as long as I can remember. Jokes regarding supposed French cowardice in battle, general arrogance, etc. have been staples for quite a while over here. There’s a reason you didn’t see people pouring bottles of Beck’s into the gutter. So, in short. Conservatives don’t hate Europe. The French government sometimes irritates conservatives and many non-conservative Americans because it often acts as a non-friendly rival in terms of economic and international policy and sometimes comes across as extremely pompous with nothing backing it up. Conservatives still like visiting France. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555.md?page=4)