# Conservative Hatred for Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555 "2004-01-22T01:39:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/81 "2004-01-23T14:46:41Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Ah yes, one incident proves a pattern. :rolleyes: Yes, yes, we all know that was just an isolated incident, and none of this stuff ever happened either: [Rumsfeld: France, Germany are ‘problems’ in Iraqi conflict](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/22/sprj.irq.wrap/) [Rumsfeld seeks to punish France for its stance](http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/6136201.htm) [Rumsfeld dismisses France and Germany as ‘old Europe’](http://www.abc.net.au/am/s768388.htm) > [@](#): > > Here’s one for you - how much attention is being paid to the US elections in foreign countries at this time? > > How much attention does the general US public pay to European or Australian elections. I’m willing to be not as much. I remember Mexican elections tended to garner a lot of paper space, but that was probably because I grew up in southern California. Outside of that, not much. You are getting things a bit confused here. _I’m_ talking about your _legislators_ having an obsession about France. Joe Six-Pack thinks Paris is a town in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/82 "2004-01-23T14:48:37Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > Where exactly will you pay out 75% in tax, and under what conditions? Under what conditions? Two conditions: 1. When all of the “Baby Boomers” reach retirement age and become a net drain on Social Security. 2. When the US government decides to institute a Universal Healthcare program. The money has to come from somewhere, right? Well, that’s what we’re looking at in about 20-25 years, when we have to bail out our parents’ generation due to their mismanagement of SS funds. For that reason, I think we need to decide which of the two programs are more valuable and get rid of one of them entrely. I’ll take Universal Healthcare and throw Social Security on the fire, if you want my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/83 "2004-01-23T14:55:01Z")
> [@London\_Calling](#): > > Waht the hell does “hating Europe” actually _mean_ for God’s sake . . . a particular policy or policies of the EU, the continent . . I have no idea. Well I personally hate your geography. All those stupid little sticky-out bits like Denmark and Iberia and Brittany. Feh! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/84 "2004-01-23T15:00:34Z")
A cursory search pulled [this](http://www.ncpa.org/pi/taxes/pd052699f.html) up, which states that US citizens pay more taxes per capita than anyone else in the world. It may not be the case now following the Bush tax cuts, but it’s still interesting to note. And what REALLY sucks is that it’s only going to get worse. From the same website: [This](http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/pd021000g.html) states that, by their formula (whatever that is, I have no idea), that the EU countries have, generally speaking, the highest “tax misery”, with only a few exceptions and the US lagging well behind. Makes me look forward to some of that good ol’ European socialism. [Here](http://www.forbes.com/global/2000/0207/0303048a.html) is the actual article if you want to read the rationale behind the numbers. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/85 "2004-01-23T15:01:06Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > The money has to come from somewhere, right? Well, that’s what we’re looking at in about 20-25 years, when we have to bail out our parents’ generation due to their mismanagement of SS funds. For that reason, I think we need to decide which of the two programs are more valuable and get rid of one of them entrely. I’ll take Universal Healthcare and throw Social Security on the fire, if you want my opinion. What country that currently has a Universal Healthcare system Taxes at 75%? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/86 "2004-01-23T15:11:42Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Under what conditions? Two conditions: > > 1. When all of the “Baby Boomers” reach retirement age and become a net drain on Social Security. > > 2. When the US government decides to institute a Universal Healthcare program. > > The money has to come from somewhere, right? Well, that’s what we’re looking at in about 20-25 years, when we have to bail out our parents’ generation due to their mismanagement of SS funds. For that reason, I think we need to decide which of the two programs are more valuable and get rid of one of them entirely. I’ll take Universal Healthcare and throw Social Security on the fire, if you want my opinion. I think you’re misunderstanding. I think the question was where would you pay 75% and the conditions are things like what tax free allowances eg. I’m on the Irish highest income tax rate of 42% but that **does not** mean that 42% is taken from my total yearly wage. I am taxed at 20% up to 28K and 42% of the balance. There is also mortgage/rent relief etc. to be taken into account. Basically just saying a number when talking about taxation doesn’t just mean that that’s the full story. So what countries are you talking when you say that they would take 50-75% of your money? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/87 "2004-01-23T15:15:02Z")
The pro-Europe camp seems to be the same ilk that are anti-US. Just to clear some things up here. France and Germany DO NOT constitute Europe. Europe is a continent that consists of many countries, most are part of the Coalition forces in Iraq. How conceited are the French and Germans to think they have more say in international politics than Spain, Poland, Italy, England, Slovakia, Hungaria, et al.? Frankly, I’m still suspicious that France and Germany are actually teaming up. I fear in the next decade the US and UK will yet again have to bail out France. For the 3rd time! ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/88 "2004-01-23T15:17:28Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Yes, yes, we all know that was just an isolated incident, and none of this stuff ever happened either: > > [Rumsfeld: France, Germany are ‘problems’ in Iraqi conflict](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/22/sprj.irq.wrap/) > > [Rumsfeld seeks to punish France for its stance](http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/6136201.htm) > > [Rumsfeld dismisses France and Germany as 'old Europe’](http://www.abc.net.au/am/s768388.htm)You are getting things a bit confused here. _I’m_ talking about your _legislators_ having an obsession about France. Joe Six-Pack thinks Paris is a town in Texas. Congratulations. You’ve proved that Donald Rumsfeld is an idiot. Would you like your Nobel Prize now or later? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/89 "2004-01-23T15:19:36Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > A cursory search pulled [this](http://www.ncpa.org/pi/taxes/pd052699f.html) up, which states that US citizens pay more taxes per capita than anyone else in the world. You mean the same cite that says “U.S. taxpayer pay less as a proportion of their income than citizens of other developed countries”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/90 "2004-01-23T15:20:09Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > What country that currently has a Universal Healthcare system Taxes at 75%? I note that you guys are hung up on that 75% number, not even noting that I gave a range of 50%-75% per capita (which should be obvious, since a progressive taxation system will never have everyone paying that much in taxes). So let’s try to be reasonable abut this, shall we? So, is it your contention that no country in the EU with UHC has a taxation rate per capita within the range that I have described? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/91 "2004-01-23T15:33:22Z")
Incidentally, we’re taking away from the larger debate here, so I’d just like to state for the record that the point of all this is that I have no desire to bail out Social Security and at the same time pay for Universal Healthcare, despite the fact that the US has fairly low marginal taxation rates. Those rates will not stay low indefinitely, and it is a fairly common sentiment among the people over here that when the bill comes due we’re looking at massive increases in taxation, which goes against the grain of everyone who pays taxes in the US. As it is, the Bush tax cut has had the direct effect of increasing the deficit dramatically, so it’s pretty evident that the taxes are going to have to come up again. I don’t know why you guys think that I’m attacking you. If you like what you have, that’s great. I’m not real keen on the future prospects here, though, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/92 "2004-01-23T15:40:10Z")
Hold on, **Airman** - did you read **yojimbo’s** post: the top rate may indeed be something outrageous in the 50-75% band (looking up Sweden as we speak), but the taxes are in bands. [In Ireland](http://www.revenue.ie/): the first ~€6,600 you earn isn’t taxed at all. Anything you earn from €10,000 to €28,000 is taxed at 20% Anything above €28,000 is taxed at 42%. Thus it is mathematically impossible for anyone to pay 42% of their entire income (though if you’re earning €1,000,000 per annum it’s as good as 42%, but for ordinary Joe Soaps it’s not). Here’s a comparative [list](http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/tax/personalincometaxes.html) showing a few industrialized nations. Note that there is little correlation between national health services and taxation rates. But I see your point about pensions - that’s a headache everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/93 "2004-01-23T15:40:55Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > _I’m_ talking about your _legislators_ having an obsession about France. Joe Six-Pack thinks Paris is a town in Texas. Donald Rumsfeld is not a “legislator”. And ever’body knows that Paris is in _Kentucky_. In addition, Troy and Rome are in New York. Though no Americans think about that much either, especially at this time of year. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/94 "2004-01-23T15:42:03Z")
I don’t think anybody thinks you’re attacking anyone. You mentioned a total take from your wages of 50-75%. You were merely asked by me any way what country takes 50-75% of your gross pay. As you say it is a hijack so lets let it go. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/95 "2004-01-23T15:46:11Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Incidentally, we’re taking away from the larger debate here, so I’d just like to state for the record that the point of all this is that I have no desire to bail out Social Security and at the same time pay for Universal Healthcare, despite the fact that the US has fairly low marginal taxation rates. Those rates will not stay low indefinitely, and it is a fairly common sentiment among the people over here that when the bill comes due we’re looking at massive increases in taxation, which goes against the grain of everyone who pays taxes in the US. As it is, the Bush tax cut has had the direct effect of increasing the deficit dramatically, so it’s pretty evident that the taxes are going to have to come up again. > > I don’t know why you guys think that I’m attacking you. If you like what you have, that’s great. I’m not real keen on the future prospects here, though, that’s all. we’re not seeing it as an attack, more a spreading of misinformation. You were the one that brought the 75% into the equation. Even from tyour cite the largest paid (in 2000 in france on a figure of 200,000 showed less than 55%. where did you get 75% from? If you want to live in a society, you should be willing to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/96 "2004-01-23T17:06:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Come now. Who came up with “Freedom Fries”? Come now yourself. Who cares? How does one isolated incident of anti-french spite prove “Conservative Hatred for Europe” is anything but a fantasy? It wasn’t like conservatives were out in droves demanding McDonalds change their menu or something. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > All the anti-French venom of 2003 sprang from the French refusal to ask “how high?” when Bush said “jump”. What anti-French venom? I remember seeing some bottles of wine getting dumped in the street (on tv), but that’s about it. I see more anti-Frenchism on an average episode of _Married… With Children_. It’s not like conservatives were firebombing French consulates or something. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Who angrily declared in his State of the Union speech that the US didn’t need a permission slip from the UN to go to war when it saw fit? What does this have to do with “Conservative Hatred for Europe”? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Dick Cheney made it quite clear to Secretary O’Neill: Divergent views are NOT welcome in the Bush cabinet. When questioning the rationale for yet another tax cut for the rich, O’Neill was told by Cheney that these cuts were due to the Republicans for winning the midterm elections. O’Neill’s better judgement on tax policy was no more welcome to Bush & Cheney than Powell’s better judgement on diplomacy. How many divergent views were allowed in the Clinton cabinet? How reliable of a source could O’Neill possibly be since he obviously has an axe to grind? Why is O’Neill’s judgement inherently superior to everyone elses? Many people believe that tax cuts help the economy. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > From The American Conservative , no less. > > …But the question remains: why are the neocons so mad at Europe? The anti-Semitism that is allegedly swamping the Continent cannot be the answer, except in the minds of the more loopy Zionists. Nor can Europe’s supposed envy of the United States… > > If Bush does not go to war, he loses face (and therefore votes). But if he stands and fights he risks losing the support of the 60 percent of Americans who do not believe that he has made the case for war. Some of us are wondering, therefore, whether he might not continue to procrastinate and, after cutting a relatively bloodless (but profitable) deal in the Middle East, declare a famous diplomatic victory. It is that possibility that goes some way to explaining why the neocons hate Europe. They do not want diplomatic victories. They want military victories. Some of them have been lusting after a war with Iraq since Sept. 12. Now they fear that Europe—or at least European and Third World voices within the UN—will somehow snatch it from them… Again, how does this illustrate “Conservative Hatred for Europe”? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/97 "2004-01-23T19:00:39Z")
Oh, and on the subject of nationalism in the US v. European countries, please read [this article](http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html?http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/040122121843.shtml). It’s about a Hungarian F1 driver who turned down $1.5M Euros in sponsorship from an Austrian company, because he wanted to “race in Formula One in Hungarian colours only.” Meanwhile, here in the ultra-nationalistic US, Toyota is going to be racing in the American-as-apple-pie NASCAR truck series this season and there haven’t been any rumblings, much less complaints or protests. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/98 "2004-01-23T19:34:41Z")
Wow. What a complete trainwreck of a thread. > [@](#): > > _originally from BobLibDem_ > Come now. Who came up with “Freedom Fries”? All the anti-French venom of 2003 sprang from the French refusal to ask “how high?” when Bush said “jump”. Who angrily declared in his State of the Union speech that the US didn’t need a permission slip from the UN to go to war when it saw fit? Uh-huh. You _do_ know that French-American relations began to go sour starting in the 1960’s as de Gaulle pulled France away from the U.S. and Britain and began advocating France as the ‘middle way’ between the U.S. and U.S.S.R.? That tensions have _always_ existed since then, because France wishes to prove itself a great power by leading the opposition to British and American actions? That France uses American culture as a bogeyman to help reinforce its cultural xenophobia? That the Simpsons reference to Frenchmen as “cheese-eating surrender monkeys” comes from a mid-90’s episode? 'Cause they way you phrase it, you sound like you think that France-bashing was wholely invented by the Bush administration as a result of the Iraq War, which would be an extremely ignorant and ahistorical position. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/99 "2004-01-25T06:32:20Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > How conceited are the French and Germans to think they have more say in international politics than Spain, Poland, Italy, England, Slovakia, Hungaria, et al.? Where’s the conceit? They simply _do_ have more say then most countries. They simply _do_ have more power then Slovakia. I dont see the French and Germans begging for handouts from Eastern Europe. France has nuclear weapons, it has an ability to project force beyond its borders as its repeated African interventions demonstrate, it is a permanent member of the UN Security Council. And acting in concert with Germany they represent the third largest economy in the world. It wasnt Slovakian money that the US wanted for Iraqi reconstruction. Granted they arent a US league power, no one is, but they are a formidable force nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Pepsi\_Classic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@Pepsi\_Classic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pepsi_Classic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555/100 "2004-01-25T10:31:09Z")
Just one example: > **[Ann Coulter: Biography and Latest Articles - Ann Coulter](https://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/)** > > Ann Coulter is the author of seven New York Times bestsellers -- Guilty: Liberal Victim and Their Assault On America (January 2009); If Democrats Has Any Brains,They'd Be Republicans (October 2007); Godless: The Church of Liberalism (June 2006); How... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-hatred-for-europe/225555.md?page=6)