# Conservative London Mayor quashes anti-gay bus ads **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039 "2012-04-17T14:03:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/21 "2012-04-17T15:52:37Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Can you furnish me with a cite to the times when anti-gay ads graced American city buses? > > Because the only difference between the US and UK that this thread really exemplifies is how facile an understanding most Brits have of the United States. Maybe you can point to the line in the OP where it is suggested that they ever did. Besides which it is irrelevant. Your conservatives use homesexualty as a dog whistle issue (witness Rick Perry’s ad) and your politicians and religious loons shriek on long and loud about how gay marriage will lead to the End Days, dogs and cats marrying etc. Our actual ruling Conservatives introduce it. If you can’t see that is a pretty damn large difference between the USA and the UK in social attitudes you need to remove the ideological blinkers. That is the sound point the OP is making. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/22 "2012-04-17T15:53:47Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > In no country in the world does free speech actually mean the right to say whatever, to whoever, in any circumstance. Good thing I didn’t say there was. > [@](#): > > And given the history, I’d argue that something implying the “curing” of homosexuality should come under hate speech. That’s a stretch. Or, rather, please elaborate on how these particular ads are “hate speech”. > [@](#): > > In the US, there might be tolerance of many anti-gay messages, simply because it is a popular viewpoint, but reverse the message to “we can make you gay” and it would probably fall foul of obscenity rules or something like that. Tolerating popular viewpoints is easy. We tolerate unpopular ones, too. > [@Ludovic](#): > > What leeway should countries have regarding fundamental human rights before those in other countries are allowed to consider it a morality issue? Does this same principle apply to same sex marriage and women’s rights? Which “fundamental human right” is at play here? The right not to see an ad you don’t like? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/23 "2012-04-17T15:54:15Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Oh, burn. > > Call us when one of the chambers of your legislature _isn’t_ reserved for members of the Lucky Sperm Club. Great comeback. And do tell us what Chamber this is? Here’s a clue - it’s not The House of Lords. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/24 "2012-04-17T16:01:22Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > What chamber would that be? The Lords. A status unknown to Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/25 "2012-04-17T16:03:21Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Maybe you can point to the line in the OP where it is suggested that they ever did. Besides which it is irrelevant. Your conservatives use homesexualty as a dog whistle issue (witness Rick Perry’s ad) and your politicians and religious loons shriek on long and loud about how gay marriage will lead to the End Days, dogs and cats marrying etc. Oh, goodness me! Who, pray tell, sought to buy these ads then, considering that there are no homophobes in England? Imaginary Lord Paisley perhaps? Pretend Baroness O’Cathain? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/26 "2012-04-17T16:03:55Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > The Lords. A status unknown to Americans. The Lords is not “reserved for members of the lucky sperm club”, though, that’s why I was puzzled. I agree with the general sentiment that it is anachronistic, but the vast majority of its members are appointed. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/27 "2012-04-17T16:04:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s a stretch. Or, rather, please elaborate on how these particular ads are “hate speech”. We generally think labelling people ‘sinners’ for their sexuality can come in that category - depending on the particulars. It’s inciting hatred. And no - we don’t buy the ‘hate the sin not the sinner’ dichotomy. And implying that sexual orientation is just a matter of choice or illness can certainly be seen as inciting hatred for a group. Whether this particular ad would actually be deemed hate speech legally I doubt though. But I’m quite comfortable with groups not being able to advertise their false medical quakery. They cannot ‘cure’ gayness any more than they could claim to cure Aids by prayer. It is a false claim made with malign intent. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/28 "2012-04-17T16:06:31Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > but the vast majority of its members are appointed. And yet, _not a single member_ of our Congress inherits his seat. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/29 "2012-04-17T16:06:59Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Oh, goodness me! Who, pray tell, sought to buy these ads then, considering that there are no homophobes in England? What? I mean - what? 😕 In all seriousness and no snark or insult intended - is English your first language and you’tre having difficulty understanding what people are writing? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/30 "2012-04-17T16:07:25Z")
Look, I have no doubt that your conservatives are “better” than our conservatives, if you want to dance about that. Still, in the US we would be concerned about free speech in this area even if most of us (except for the bad conservatives, of course) are past the “gay sex is sin” phase. We even have a president whose views on SSM are “evolving”, even if we have a candidate for president whose views on gay rights are devolving. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/31 "2012-04-17T16:08:05Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > And yet, _not a single member_ of our Congress inherits his seat. In English ‘inherited’ and ‘appointed’ have 2 different meanings. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/32 "2012-04-17T16:11:40Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > And yet, _not a single member_ of our Congress inherits his seat. Agreed. As I said, The Lords is anachronistic, but lets be accurate about things. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/33 "2012-04-17T16:12:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Look, I have no doubt that your conservatives are “better” than our conservatives, if you want to dance about that. Well, we’d be more concerned about the ‘free speech’ of Big Money drowning out everyone else. And damn right - we want to do our little happy dance when we look at the crippling hold religion has on your society and how much damage it does. We like religion to be kept out of real stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/34 "2012-04-17T16:14:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m conflicted here. While I don’t support the concept of “curing” gay people, isn’t there a free speech issue involved, too? The article doesn’t really address that. Not as long as he is only cancelling the ads on the public transport and not in London in general. It is however doubtful how an ad that merely says “Not gay! Ex-gay, post-gay and proud. Get over it!” deserves the label “anti-gay.” Would “Not Christian! Ex-Christian, post-Christian and proud. Get over it!” be Christianophobia? And so what if it is “anti-gay?” Some people are anti-gay, get over it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/35 "2012-04-17T16:20:45Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Well, we’d be more concerned about the ‘free speech’ of Big Money drowning out everyone else. That’s a very legitimate concern, firmly rooted in the technology of the 1950s. > [@](#): > > And damn right - we want to do our little happy dance when we look at the crippling hold religion has on your society and how much damage it does. We like religion to be kept out of real stuff. Meh. We’re a big country with a lot of diversity. Better to compare us to the whole of Europe, rather than one country. SSM is at least legal in several US states. The UK? Nowhere. I guess our liberals are better than your liberals. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/36 "2012-04-17T16:21:26Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > And so what if it is “anti-gay?” Some people are anti-gay, get over it. [Ian Baynham](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/teenage-girl-locked-up-for-killing-gay-man-2162067.html) shows no sign of ‘getting over it’ any time soon. Nor, apparently is [Roger Gray](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-12831023). ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/37 "2012-04-17T16:23:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s a very legitimate concern, firmly rooted in the technology of the 1950s. > Meh. We’re a big country with a lot of diversity. Better to compare us to the whole of Europe, rather than one country. SSM is at least legal in several US states. The UK? Nowhere. I guess our liberals are better than your liberals. SSM is legal in some states for the time being. SSM will soon be legal in all the UK permanently. And Big Money buying political influence is not rooted in any technology. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/38 "2012-04-17T16:23:15Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > [Ian Baynham](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/teenage-girl-locked-up-for-killing-gay-man-2162067.html) shows no sign of ‘getting over it’ any time soon. > > Nor, apparently is [Roger Gray](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-12831023). Goodness gracious! I was led to believe that the UK eradicated homophobia by way of suppressing bus ads and irreligion! That’s why you’re so much better than the United States. … Trouble in paradise? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/39 "2012-04-17T16:25:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@Mijin](#): > > > > And given the history, I’d argue that something implying the “curing” of homosexuality should come under hate speech. > > That’s a stretch. Or, rather, please elaborate on how these particular ads are “hate speech”. Well _given the history_. Homosexuality brought the death penalty for centuries in England, then it was merely a case of either imprisonment or hormonal treatment (“chemical castration”) to cure one of these evil urges. Alan Turing, one of the greatest mathematicians and computer scientists of all time, a man that led the project to decode the Nazi ENIGMA codes and hasten the end of the war, was made to undergo this hormone treatment. He killed himself soon after. And generally the hatred and bigotry which our culture has shown towards homosexuals (probably less than the US, but still) may seen to be legitimized by the implication of homosexuality as a disease. Bearing in mind all this history, these comments are going to cause offense and possibly promote intolerance. In an alternate world where none of that had happened, maybe you could have a sober discussion of whether homosexuality should be considered pathological. But not here. Not on the side of a bus anyway. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039/40 "2012-04-17T16:27:44Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Well, we’d be more concerned about the ‘free speech’ of Big Money drowning out everyone else. Well, we are miles ahead in terms of campaign advertising and financing, but the current cabinet has a disproportionate number of millionaires compared to the Commons in general and it only costs £250k to have a dinner with the Prime Minister in order to get one’s policies considered. If nothing else, at least there are more legitimate channels for the shadow big business casts over politics in the US and the split between legislature and governmnet mitigates some of the effect. > [@John Mace](#): > > SSM is at least legal in several US states. The UK? Nowhere. Yes, but the previous Labour government instituted civil partnerships and the UK has an Equalities Minister. A [crappy equalities minister](http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/05/13/theresa-may-promises-defends-equalities-role/), but an equality minister nonetheless. Oh, I suppose the US has a similar position. The UK has nothing like DOMA either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-london-mayor-quashes-anti-gay-bus-ads/619039.md?page=3)