# Conservative pundits advocating murder against fellow Americans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813 "2005-05-20T23:25:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/61 "2005-05-23T14:35:21Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I’ll give you the same scenario that I have someone else in another thread. They couldn’t answer Maybe you’ll be able to step up. Ten people are arrested in a house filled with weapons. One is innocent…in the wrong place at the wrong time. Three others know nothing, but are true believers. Four more are foot soldiers in the plan. One is the ringleader who knows valuable information. Of course, all ten of them are claiming ignorance and innocence. American lives depend on you getting results. What’s your plan, big man? Conduct an investigation to find out who is innocent and who is not. Convict and punich those who are not. Set the rest free. Do so in a timely and transparent manner. This is not the answer you’d hoped for, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/62 "2005-05-23T14:36:09Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > This is one time that real world pragmatism must take precedence over an intellectual ideal. As I have said before, we can climb back up on our pedastal when the people trying to kill us are dead. You actually believe there will be a time when nobody wants to kill us? That there won’t **always** be an excuse to not give back civil liberties? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/63 "2005-05-23T14:41:30Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Do any of you really believe that because some people caught red-handed are being interrogated in Gitmo How do we know they were caught red-handed? How do we know they are currently being interrogated? Do you have some inside information that the rest of us don’t? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/64 "2005-05-23T14:42:46Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > If so, you can’t have it both ways, Steve. Hard choices have to be made and distasteful deeds have to be done in order to prevent future attacks. Who among the recently indignant would like to sacrifice themselves or a family member to a terrorist attack in the name of our traditional justice system? Distasteful deeds such as rounding up innocent people, torturing them to get information etc. Grabbing and locking people up indefinitely, with no probable cause and no charges filed is a violation of the law. Torturing people is against the law and is sick. Even “bad people” eventually realize that as an information gathering tool it is worthless besides. Let’s turn your own words around and see how they play. Who among the recently indignant would like to sacrifice themselves or a family member to a fascist police state in the name of our “freedom”? That is what you are really saying. It’s not a hard choice at all. It’s an obvious choice. > [@](#): > > If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madision > > Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. -William Pitt > > We cannot defend freedom abroad while deserting it at home. - Edward R. Murrow > > Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire What you support is an atrocity. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/65 "2005-05-23T15:00:16Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > we can climb back up on our pedastal when the people trying to kill us are dead. We will have the luxury of restoring civil liberties just as soon as no one needs them any longer. We have always been at war with Eastasia. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/66 "2005-05-23T15:02:47Z")
Must be a slow wingnut leftist news week. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/67 "2005-05-23T16:57:14Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > The hard questions involve trade-offs between values and risk. And where do you draw that line? What is your answer to the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/68 "2005-05-23T17:00:29Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Conduct an investigation to find out who is innocent and who is not. ``` Will you use coercion during your investigation? Or would you be willing to accept american death and destruction by avoiding doing so? ``` How many deaths are acceptable to preserve the illusion that people who take up arms against us are entitled to the rights of the society that they are trying to destroy? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/69 "2005-05-23T17:02:09Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > You actually believe there will be a time when nobody wants to kill us? That there won’t **always** be an excuse to not give back civil liberties? Do you believe that the civil liberties you speak of are being taken away in some sort of Orwellian plot? That there is a “slippery slope” plan being chuckled over in Justice Department back rooms? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/70 "2005-05-23T17:04:04Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Do you believe that the civil liberties you speak of are being taken away in some sort of Orwellian plot? That there is a “slippery slope” plan being chuckled over in Justice Department back rooms? Why do you tell me what you were referring too, then, when you said “we can climb back up on our pedastal when the people trying to kill us are dead”? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/71 "2005-05-23T17:04:52Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > How do we know they were caught red-handed? How do we know they are currently being interrogated? Do you have some inside information that the rest of us don’t? No…and neither do you. If someone who is suspected of having knowledge of terrorism plans is captured, the military isn’t exactly going to do a “perp walk” in front of TV cameras. Why is it so hard to accept the fact that our government needs to know what some people don’t want to tell them…and that finding out is in our best interest? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/72 "2005-05-23T17:08:46Z")
And there certainly does not have to be an “Orwellian plot” to remove civil liberties. Just because they are removed because of the perceived safety gained does not make any more excusable than if Simon bar Sinister plotted to take them away. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/73 "2005-05-23T17:09:56Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Why do you tell me what you were referring too, then, when you said “we can climb back up on our pedastal when the people trying to kill us are dead”? I am referring to the inconvienient fact to some that we are actually involved in a conflict with a group of people who want to kill as many of us as possible. As such, we are going beyond normal measures to find out what they know and prevent the loss of American lives. When the extraordinary situation is resolved, the extraordinary measures will stop. Anyone who thinks otherwise is engaging in stereotypical paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/74 "2005-05-23T17:15:02Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > And there certainly does not have to be an “Orwellian plot” to remove civil liberties. Just because they are removed because of the perceived safety gained does not make any more excusable than if Simon bar Sinister plotted to take them away. And whose civil liberties have been removed? People who aren’t even citizens of the society they are at war with? People who have chosen to take an active role in attacking us? Beyond all the philisophical hysterics, have you seen any evidence at all that the day to day justice system in this country is on a totalitarian rights-taking spree? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/75 "2005-05-23T17:16:17Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > We will have the luxury of restoring civil liberties just as soon as no one needs them any longer. We have always been at war with Eastasia. And tdn leaves the discussion with a cutsey reference to Orwell. Thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/76 "2005-05-23T17:16:29Z")
So, exactly what group of people who wants us dead has be eliminated before the “extraordinary situation” is considered resolved? Tell us exactly what must happen before you feel we can stop the extraordinary measures. Surely is has to be more specific that “those who want us dead”; you must realize there will ALWAYS be people who want us dead. Is it just Al-Queda? Or any Muslim extremist? Be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/77 "2005-05-23T17:18:50Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Who among the recently indignant would like to sacrifice themselves or a family member to a fascist police state in the name of our “freedom”? Do you really believe that our society is suddenly a “facist police state”, Steve? Because if you do, we can go round and round for days and not make any progress at all. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/78 "2005-05-23T17:20:01Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > And whose civil liberties have been removed? People who aren’t even citizens of the society they are at war with? People who have chosen to take an active role in attacking us? > > Beyond all the philisophical hysterics, have you seen any evidence at all that the day to day justice system in this country is on a totalitarian rights-taking spree? [http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A31438-2002Nov23¬Found=true](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A31438-2002Nov23¬Found=true) " Authorities have arrested and jailed at least 44 people as potential grand jury witnesses in the 14 months of the nationwide terrorism investigation, but nearly half have never been called to testify before a grand jury, according to defense lawyers and others involved in the cases. Although they had not been charged with any crimes, these “material witnesses” were often held under maximum security conditions, in detentions ranging from a few days to several months or longer. **At least seven of the witnesses were U.S. citizens.**" (Bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/79 "2005-05-23T17:22:11Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > And where do you draw that line? What is your answer to the problem? Probably pretty close to where **revtim** draws it in post #51. If we betray the principles of our nation, they are still betrayed even as we attempt to clamber up our cracked, tarnished, and besmeared pedestal. We can defend ourselves and maintain our honor. These are not mutually exclusive goals. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/80 "2005-05-23T17:24:42Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > So, exactly what group of people who wants us dead has be eliminated before the “extraordinary situation” is considered resolved? Tell us exactly what must happen before you feel we can stop the extraordinary measures. Surely is has to be more specific that “those who want us dead”; you must realize there will ALWAYS be people who want us dead. Is it just Al-Queda? Or any Muslim extremist? Be specific. If I were King, I would endorse the extraordinary judicial measures against anyone who is actively plotting terrorism against the United States. From muslim extremists to far right-wing nut jobs. If you are trying to put together a plan to kill people wholesale, then I don’t have a problem with coercive tactics to glean information. The fewer people who are doing this, the fewer times the extraordinary measures need to be applied. In the meantime, I would work to try to solve the Palestinian issue and to try to bring democracy to the Middle East. Hopefully this would reduce the number of people in the pipeline to terrorism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813.md?page=5)