# Conservative pundits advocating murder against fellow Americans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813 "2005-05-20T23:25:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/81 "2005-05-23T17:27:24Z")
Well gee. Let’s wipe out the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, all of it. Let’s all have a healthy shit on the memory of the people who started the country. Let’s drop the pretense of fighting for freedom, or preserving freedom, or even having any. Let’s not bullshit anymore about the “diginity of man” or “inalienable rights”. Everyone is guilty until proven innocent. Let’s start killing all of them (even the innocent) until we stumble upon the right one by sheer chance. But, to make it OK, let’s first wring a confession out of them by force and “aggressive interrogation”. "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. " - Abraham Lincoln "These six [things] doth the LORD **hate** : yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. " -Proverbs 6:16-19 “So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.” - Isaiah 1:15 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/82 "2005-05-23T17:29:09Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A31438-2002Nov23¬Found=true](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A31438-2002Nov23¬Found=true) > > " Authorities have arrested and jailed at least 44 people as potential grand jury witnesses in the 14 months of the nationwide terrorism investigation, but nearly half have never been called to testify before a grand jury, according to defense lawyers and others involved in the cases. > > Although they had not been charged with any crimes, these “material witnesses” were often held under maximum security conditions, in detentions ranging from a few days to several months or longer. **At least seven of the witnesses were U.S. citizens.**" (Bolding mine) Do you think these people were taken at random out of the phone book or that perhaps they were suspected of knowing something that could help prevent an attack? If they did have material knowledge then they are getting what they paid for by participating in the plot. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/83 "2005-05-23T17:30:44Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > If I were King, I would endorse the extraordinary judicial measures against anyone who is actively plotting terrorism against the United States. From muslim extremists to far right-wing nut jobs. Maybe I’m being pessimistic, but I truly doubt there won’t always be people plotting this stuff against us. When was the last time this wasn’t the case? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/84 "2005-05-23T17:30:57Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > We can defend ourselves and maintain our honor. These are not mutually exclusive goals. One one hand you say you are willing to die to preserve the status quo and on the other you say we can defend ourselves. Which is it? And what exactly would you do differently? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/85 "2005-05-23T17:33:27Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Well gee. Let’s wipe out the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, all of it. Let’s all have a healthy shit on the memory of the people who started the country. Let’s drop the pretense of fighting for freedom, or preserving freedom, or even having any. Let’s not bullshit anymore about the “diginity of man” or “inalienable rights”. Everyone is guilty until proven innocent. Let’s start killing all of them (even the innocent) until we stumble upon the right one by sheer chance. But, to make it OK, let’s first wring a confession out of them by force and “aggressive interrogation”. Are you willing to die for this, Steve? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/86 "2005-05-23T17:33:39Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > If they did have material knowledge then they are getting what they paid for by participating in the plot. And if they didn’t? What then? Are they simply broken eggs in the omelet of freedom? ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/87 "2005-05-23T17:36:37Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > If I were King… Since when does this country have a King? Isn’t that antithetical to the very principles upon which the United States was founded? Or would you favor turning the Presidency into an absolute, hereditary monarchy if someone told you it would stop terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/88 "2005-05-23T17:36:58Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Will you use coercion during your investigation? I wouldn’t use torture, if that’s what you’re asking. I’d stick to acceptable protocols. But I’d also gather evidence and build a case. > [@](#): > > Or would you be willing to accept american death and destruction by avoiding doing so? Bit of a strawman there? > [@](#): > > How many deaths are acceptable to preserve the illusion that people who take up arms against us are entitled to the rights of the society that they are trying to destroy? I would hope that not one death is acceptable to preserve a mere _illusion_ of rights. How many innocent men are you willing to destroy to preserve the illusion that America is somehow immune from terrorism? How much of the Constitution are you willing to sacrifice in order to preserve the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/89 "2005-05-23T17:37:30Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Maybe I’m being pessimistic, but I truly doubt there won’t always be people plotting this stuff against us. > > When was the last time this wasn’t the case? Islamic terrorism has been brewing for 25 years or so now. I trace it back to the Iranian Hostage crisis in 1979. When we didn’t hit back, the Arab world saw that we could be humiliated and pushed around. The problem took a long time to build and it will take a long time to deal with. It’s foolish to leave yourself vulnerable for the sake of a philisophical ideal. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/90 "2005-05-23T17:37:51Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Are you willing to die for this, Steve? Given a choice between living under it, or dying to preserve it and oppose the sort of world you want to live in? **I’d rather die**. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/91 "2005-05-23T17:39:33Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > And if they didn’t? What then? Are they simply broken eggs in the omelet of freedom? Are there totally innocent people that have been subjected to this? Perhaps. If so, they deserve to be compensated and apologized to. But I would rather deal with 999 bad actors than leave 1000 of them alone. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/92 "2005-05-23T17:39:43Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Do you think these people were taken at random out of the phone book or that perhaps they were suspected of knowing something that could help prevent an attack? If they did have material knowledge then they are getting what they paid for by participating in the plot. You asked which civil liberties were taken away, and not locking up people indefinitely without evidence or charges is a civil liberty. A very important one, to many people’s opinion. Did you only want civil liberty examples that you, personally, don’t care about? You’ll have to be more specific in your requests, and give a list of which ones you care and don’t care about, next time. Are you really willing to trust the gov’t to not abuse this power? Even if you trust this administration, are you willing to bet all the next administrations will be so trustworthy? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/93 "2005-05-23T17:40:39Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Since when does this country have a King? Isn’t that antithetical to the very principles upon which the United States was founded? Or would you favor turning the Presidency into an absolute, hereditary monarchy if someone told you it would stop terrorism? It was a way to say “here is what I would do”. It was not an advocacy of a monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/94 "2005-05-23T17:41:18Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Why is it so hard to accept the fact that our government needs to know what some people don’t want to tell them…and that finding out is in our best interest? I never said otherwise. You seem to be under the dichotemous impression that we either turture and kill all Arabs or we arm them with dirty bombs. Why is it so hard to accept that we have due process of law? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/95 "2005-05-23T17:41:37Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > One one hand you say you are willing to die to preserve the status quo and on the other you say we can defend ourselves. Where did I say that? Oh, I see, **Revtim** implied that he is willing to take some extra risk in order to live in a country with honor, and I agreed with him. Well, yes, of course. I’d prefer not to die, and I’d prefer to remain honorable. Where do you get this silly idea that defending myself requires my becoming an unprincipled man? Oh, that’s right, you’re projecting. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/96 "2005-05-23T17:46:05Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I’ll give you the same scenario that I have someone else in another thread. They couldn’t answer Maybe you’ll be able to step up. Ten people are arrested in a house filled with weapons. One is innocent…in the wrong place at the wrong time. Three others know nothing, but are true believers. Four more are foot soldiers in the plan. One is the ringleader who knows valuable information. Of course, all ten of them are claiming ignorance and innocence. American lives depend on you getting results. What’s your plan, big man? Well, little man, were I to respond to your scenario, I would tell you something essentially similar to **tdn’s** answer. However, it’s a bullshit scenario. How often do you have a head count of innocent versus non-innocents among a group of arrestees? What about a scenario where 9 are innocent and one is a ringleader? A more apt hypothetical would be that you arrest 10 guys in a house because you were told by a local that there were terrorists there. All 10 could be terrorists, or all 10 could be innocent. Could be that the local who gave you the information was a terrorist, or someone with a grudge, or an honest man with some information. Should you give them some degree of due process, or should you roll them around in shit, put panties on their heads, kill some of them and piss on their Koran before you let them go? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/97 "2005-05-23T17:46:52Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Do you think these people were taken at random out of the phone book or that perhaps they were suspected of knowing something that could help prevent an attack? If they did have material knowledge then they are getting what they paid for by participating in the plot. Ah, the old “They were arrested, they must be guilty” argument. I’m betting that you once called for Richard Jewell’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/98 "2005-05-23T17:48:19Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Islamic terrorism has been brewing for 25 years or so now. I trace it back to the Iranian Hostage crisis in 1979. When we didn’t hit back, the Arab world saw that we could be humiliated and pushed around. The problem took a long time to build and it will take a long time to deal with. > > It’s foolish to leave yourself vulnerable for the sake of a philisophical ideal. I admit that I’m no history buff, but surely there were some pissed-off Arabs who wanted us dead when we helped create the state of Israel in '48? (I honestly don’t know, I’m not being sarcastic. Corrections welcome.) And BTW, not wanting the gov’t to have the power to lock me or my loved ones up indefinitely without a trial or even charges is a bit more tangible than a philisophical ideal. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/99 "2005-05-23T17:50:30Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Bit of a strawman there? How is it a strawman to point out that there are consequences to not getting necessary information from prisoners? > [@tdn](#): > > I would hope that not one death is acceptable to preserve a mere _illusion_ of rights. How many innocent men are you willing to destroy to preserve the illusion that America is somehow immune from terrorism? How much of the Constitution are you willing to sacrifice in order to preserve the Constitution? Are you saying that innocents are being dragged from their homes and killed? Or by “destroy” do you mean aggressively interrogated? As to your other question, I don’t like the necessity of these acts any more than you do. But I’m not willing to risk lives on inaction either. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/100 "2005-05-23T17:51:56Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Why is it so hard to accept that we have due process of law? ``` We have due process for millions of people every day. And we have extraordinary circumstances for a couple of thousand. ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813.md?page=6)