# Conservative pundits advocating murder against fellow Americans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813 "2005-05-20T23:25:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/101 "2005-05-23T17:52:59Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > All 10 could be terrorists, or all 10 could be innocent. I think you’re wasting your time with this argument. **Evil One** seems to be of the mindset that only criminals and terrorists can get arrested. The thought “What if it happened to you?” will never occur to him, no matter how many ways you try to explain it. He’ll always come back with “I’d never put myself in that situation.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/102 "2005-05-23T17:53:22Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Where do you get this silly idea that defending myself requires my becoming an unprincipled man? Oh, that’s right, you’re projecting. And where did you get the idea that it’s impossible to agree that some coercion is necessary in certain cases and still be principled? ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/103 "2005-05-23T17:57:13Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > We have due process for millions of people every day. And we have extraordinary circumstances for a couple of thousand. > [@The Bill of Rights](#): > > Amendment V > No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. > > Amendment VI > In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. Where the fuck are you getting this “extraordinary circumstances” proviso? Did I miss the passage of an amendment stating “Due process may be suspended if we think you might be a terrorist”? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/104 "2005-05-23T17:58:06Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Well, little man, were I to respond to your scenario, I would tell you something essentially similar to **tdn’s** answer. However, it’s a bullshit scenario. How often do you have a head count of innocent versus non-innocents among a group of arrestees? What about a scenario where 9 are innocent and one is a ringleader? > > A more apt hypothetical would be that you arrest 10 guys in a house because you were told by a local that there were terrorists there. All 10 could be terrorists, or all 10 could be innocent. Could be that the local who gave you the information was a terrorist, or someone with a grudge, or an honest man with some information. Should you give them some degree of due process, or should you roll them around in shit, put panties on their heads, kill some of them and piss on their Koran before you let them go? I think that both examples are possible, as well as other variations. And I do think that some degree of due process is called for. I don’t advocate torture for personal amusement. But leads have to be followed and care has to be taken to preserve lives and property. You can’t go overboard on coercion and you can’t sit back and do nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/105 "2005-05-23T18:00:17Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Ah, the old “They were arrested, they must be guilty” argument. I’m betting that you once called for Richard Jewell’s death. No. Jewell got screwed. But as I said, you can’t ignore 999 bad actors because 1 might be innocent. No system is perfect and some people have been wronged. But what is the alternative? Roll over and wait? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/106 "2005-05-23T18:00:50Z")
My wording was awkward, but I trust you got my meaning. Given a choice between living in “your world” or being dead, I’d prefer death. Your way is just death by slow rot anyway. Call it “death before dishonor”, stubbornness, fanaticism, whatever. How can you wave the flag, talk about glory and freedom, and all that, when you are so eager to flush it all down the toilet? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/107 "2005-05-23T18:03:17Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > And BTW, not wanting the gov’t to have the power to lock me or my loved ones up indefinitely without a trial or even charges is a bit more tangible than a philisophical ideal. Do you really think that will happen? Do you expect someone to just pick your name out of a hat and kick your door down? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/108 "2005-05-23T18:03:25Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > But leads have to be followed and care has to be taken to preserve lives and property. You can’t go overboard on coercion and you can’t sit back and do nothing. I’ll accept this. I think we all will. But don’t you think that arresting people without charge and holding them indefinitely without representation goes overboard? What about inflicting cruel and unusual punishment without a conviction? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/109 "2005-05-23T18:05:54Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > But as I said, you can’t ignore 999 bad actors because 1 might be innocent. What about 998 and 2? 600 and 400? 1 and 999? Perhaps you’re not aware, but the proportion of bad guys to good guys in detention in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Guantanamo is not anywhere close to 999:1. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/110 "2005-05-23T18:06:57Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Where the fuck are you getting this “extraordinary circumstances” proviso? Did I miss the passage of an amendment stating “Due process may be suspended if we think you might be a terrorist”? Do people who are not American citizens and who are actively engaged in behavior to attack our society have the standing to involk constitutional rights? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/111 "2005-05-23T18:07:14Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > But as I said, you can’t ignore 999 bad actors because 1 might be innocent. No system is perfect and some people have been wronged. But what is the alternative? Roll over and wait? Of course not. But where do you come up with statistics for 999:1? How do you know it’s not 500:500? Or 1:999? Or even 0:1000? It’s not like we have lawyers investigating. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/112 "2005-05-23T18:08:09Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > My wording was awkward, but I trust you got my meaning. Given a choice between living in “your world” or being dead, I’d prefer death. Your way is just death by slow rot anyway. Call it “death before dishonor”, stubbornness, fanaticism, whatever. > > How can you wave the flag, talk about glory and freedom, and all that, when you are so eager to flush it all down the toilet? I am willing to fight for my society against those who would destroy it. That includes forcing them to talk when necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/113 "2005-05-23T18:11:01Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’ll accept this. I think we all will. > > But don’t you think that arresting people without charge and holding them indefinitely without representation goes overboard? What about inflicting cruel and unusual punishment without a conviction? Yes. Indefinitely is too much. So is outright torture. Even if they aren’t citizens. Would I punish before conviction? Also, no. But I am willing to keep someone awake for a couple of days to force them to answer questions where lives may depend on the answers. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/114 "2005-05-23T18:16:47Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Do you really think that will happen? Do you expect someone to just pick your name out of a hat and kick your door down? No, I expect it will happen (hopefully not to me) not from picking a name at random, but from bad evidence, lying informants with a grudge, investigational mistakes, etc. You know, the reasons why we actually have due process. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/115 "2005-05-23T18:17:54Z")
I don’t know how many people are in custody in Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan. I don’t know how many are being held without charges. I don’t know how many are innocent. I do know that we cannot sit back and do nothing when we are in danger. Our country has done more good and saved more lives than any other in modern history. Our soldiers have died defending Muslims from genocide in Bosnia. We are a beacon of science and medicine. We simply cannot sit on our hands in the name of philosophy and wait to be attacked. We have to preempt and prevent. Will the system always work the way it should? No. Will human error and weakness be a factor? Yes. But we have to defend the society we hold dear…even if some of the steps are painful. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/116 "2005-05-23T18:21:37Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Yes. Indefinitely is too much. So is outright torture. Even if they aren’t citizens. Would I punish before conviction? Also, no. Good to hear. But you realize we are doing just that, right? > [@](#): > > But I am willing to keep someone awake for a couple of days to force them to answer questions where lives may depend on the answers. There’s the rub. Is keeping someone awake for days on end torture? From what I understand, it is, and a rather cruel one at that. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/117 "2005-05-23T18:23:14Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Do people who are not American citizens and who are actively engaged in behavior to attack our society have the standing to involk constitutional rights? What about the seven American citizens in my Washington Post cite in post #78? And the fact that you say these are people who are “actively engaged in behavior to attack our society” shows that your biggest problem is that you are assuming everybody they took into custody is automatically guilty. If law enforcement is so perfect, why have due process at all? Why not just have the cop or agent pass sentence in all matters? Or are they magically more skilled and less prone to error or corruption only when terrorists are involved? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/118 "2005-05-23T18:25:43Z")
I ask again, Revtim. I confer absolute power upon you. Please tell me specifically how you would deal with the problem of getting information from detainees. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/119 "2005-05-23T18:26:27Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I do know that we cannot sit back and do nothing when we are in danger. Who is saying we are to do nothing? Surely there is some value, in your eyes, to investigation and law enforcement that follows the Bill Of Rights? Or is that so useless to you that it’s as bad as literally nothing? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813/120 "2005-05-23T18:33:09Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > We simply cannot sit on our hands in the name of philosophy and wait to be attacked. We have to preempt and prevent. What you’re saying is we have a right to protect ourselves. And I don’t think anyone here disagrees. But we’re not trying to protect a mere philosophy, as you put it. To the innocent famer who’s been rotting away in Gitmo for 3 years with no foreseeable chance of release, it’s more than just a philosophy. It’s the right to have been tried and released 2.9 years ago. He’s being denied that. By the Beacon of Justice, no less. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-pundits-advocating-murder-against-fellow-americans/304813.md?page=7)