# Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343 "2009-05-22T22:19:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/141 "2009-05-24T09:45:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **jtgain** , the fact that the questions is even active as to whether or not waterboarding is even torture, a represents a major victory for the cabal. That question was settled in law long ago, during the post-WW2 war crimes trials. The fact that it is seriously being discussed by some as to whether or not torture is even \*illegal \*is another such victory. Even they knew it is - that’s what the memos were for. They just want to teach the controversy. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/142 "2009-05-24T13:50:42Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I guess I’m not seeing the point of all of this. Okay, fine; let’s waterboard Hannity, Mancow, Cheney, et al and watch them cave after 4 seconds and cry like little girls. Great. So what did we accomplish? > > I know of nobody who says that waterboarding is fun or that a real man can handle it. It is obviously a very uncomfortable procedure or it wouldn’t work in interrogations. The question at hand is asking if waterboarding is SO bad as to be considered torture and therefore not something we should use to illicit information on Al-Qaeda terrorists. Except for, you know, the guy the entire thread is about. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/143 "2009-05-24T14:03:33Z")
“Very uncomfortable”. I think you are on pretty safe ground there. A root canal procedure performed with a Black and Decker quarter-inch drill and a pair of pliers…“very uncomfortable”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/144 "2009-05-24T14:12:41Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > You and I. > > :rolleyes: The three of you? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/145 "2009-05-24T14:16:19Z")
I watched the video. It looked like it took place in bright office, not unlike a doctor’s clinic, and he had EMT standing by, with plenty of friendly media watching and filming the whole thing. If he thinks he experienced anything like what the detainees experienced, he’s an idiot. I don’t know anything about waterboarding that the average person on this board doesn’t know, but common sense tells that when you’re being waterboarded in jail, at night, by masked people who think you might have been involved in terrorism against their country, it’s a different experience than some overweight doughboy getting paid to voluntarily submit to a hazing while being surrounded by friends and medical staff, and having the control to stop the experiment at his command. Conclusion: the douchebag factor is high. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/146 "2009-05-24T14:31:18Z")
No, Louisb shouldn’t have said, “You and me.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/147 "2009-05-24T14:42:21Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > No, Louisb shouldn’t have said, “You and me.” [Grammatical Hijack]If it is at the start of a sentence “You and I” is correct, if it is at the end of a sentence “you and me” is correct. Just delete the “you and..” part to see which fits-“_I_ went to the store to exchange the regular sized condoms for the Magnums”, and “When I made my request, the young store clerk laughed at _me_.”[/Grammatical Hijack] ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/148 "2009-05-24T14:42:22Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > They just want to teach the controversy. And don’t forget, Cheney has a book coming out soon. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/149 "2009-05-24T14:52:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Grammatical Hijack]If it is at the start of a sentence “You and I” is correct, if it is at the end of a sentence “you and me” is correct. Just delete the “you and..” part to see which fits-“_I_ went to the store to exchange the regular sized condoms for the Magnums”, and “When I made my request, the young store clerk laughed at _me_.”[/Grammatical Hijack] [Further hijack]Its placement in the sentence is not the issue at all. What matters is its _role_. If it is the subject, “you and I” is correct. If not, “you and me” is. Subjects tend to go at the beginning of the sentence, but this is by no means always the case.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/150 "2009-05-24T14:53:19Z")
I hate thread titles like this. If it were Howard Stern doing it would the title be “Liberal Radio Host Gets Waterboarded”? Mancow is an attention whoring shock jock. The name is a clue. He is a talentless hack and has nothing to do with any political discussion. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/151 "2009-05-24T15:26:01Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I hate thread titles like this. If it were Howard Stern doing it would the title be “Liberal Radio Host Gets Waterboarded”? Mancow is an attention whoring shock jock. The name is a clue. He is a talentless hack and has nothing to do with any political discussion. So you don’t think the fact he shot his mouth off about how water boarding wasn’t torture and then after 5 seconds said is clearly was is at least relevant on this one subject? I don’t give a rat’s ass about the shock jocks or grossly bias pundits who can’t tell fact from fiction but I think it’s somewhat relevant and interesting to see hos change of opinion. Sean Hannity, Next! ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/152 "2009-05-24T16:24:11Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > (…) > It disturbs me, too, that people who condemn waterboarding speak with some relish of applying it to its advocates. I said something similar in the Hannity thread a few weeks ago. I have fantasies of putting Cheney and Bush through the same kind of tortures they (indirectly) inflicted on others, and that Cheney continues to advocate. That’s a pretty normal human response to despicable behavior and to the abuse of power. However I also understand that it would be bad to actually (try to) do it. So, I strongly support laws to make it more difficult for people in power to torture in the first place. People (vice presidents and everyone else) cannot always be good without the threat of punishment. The urge for retribution is damn powerful, and the ability to administer it needs strong regulation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/153 "2009-05-24T16:34:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > [Further hijack]Its placement in the sentence is not the issue at all. What matters is its _role_. If it is the subject, “you and I” is correct. If not, “you and me” is. Subjects tend to go at the beginning of the sentence, but this is by no means always the case.[/hijack] You say _to-ma-to_, I say…Look! A kitten! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/154 "2009-05-24T16:54:28Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > So, I strongly support laws to make it more difficult for people in power to torture in the first place. People (vice presidents and everyone else) cannot always be good without the threat of punishment. > > The urge for retribution is damn powerful, and the ability to administer it needs strong regulation. Once upon a time, there was this quaint notion or may be a fantasy among the common people that no one was above the law, and this was one of the things that supposedly made us differernt from other countries. I guess it was just a bullshit story to keep us all ignorant. We already had the laws. But I guess some people really are above the law. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/155 "2009-05-24T17:47:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You say _to-ma-to_, I say…Look! A kitten! Memo to self: start no more jokes about grammar. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/156 "2009-05-24T19:16:17Z")
I saw this thread when it opened and just scanned it. I haven’t read it, but I do have a couple of questions. Some of which are specific to waterboarding, but I’m more interested in the others. So, 1. what is torture? Not, “what techniques qualify as torture”, but what defines it. The best dictionary definition fro [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) seems to be: > [@](#): > > 1. Extreme pain; anguish of body or mind; pang; agony; torment; as, torture of mind. --Shak. > 2. Especially, severe pain inflicted judicially, either as punishment for a crime, or for the purpose of extorting a confession from an accused person, as by water or fire, by the boot or thumbkin, or by the rack or wheel. So, we know that pain need be involved. I think we’d all agree on that. And that drilling into someone’s teeth or ripping their fingernails out would easily qualify. But where is the line between extreme discomfort, or just annoying discomfort applied over time and outright, excruciating pain? Also, are non-physical acts “torture”, as well? If I play one Abba song over and over and over again in order to annoy someone sufficiently to give up info, is that torture? 1. What is the difference between “torture” and “enhanced interrogation techniques”? Let’s say there’s an act that you, personally, falls into the latter category. what is it. What makes it an enhanced interrogation technique and not torture? Now, let’s assume that there exists an enhanced interrogation technique you are okay with. Let’s also assume that it comes with a commensurate increase in effectiveness, as small as it may be. Isn’t safe to say that this technique will deliver discomfort to the suspect? If so, how much discomfort can one apply until it moves into the torture category? 1. Leaving aside whether waterboarding is torture or not for now, and assuming it falls short of that and is “merely” an enhanced interrogation technique, it would still deliver discomfort, correct? I ask this because of the weight Mancow’s conclusion seems to be given. What criteria is he using? We see him go from absolute panic to being completely lucid and free of pain in the matter of a minute or two. The fact that an enhanced interrogation technique was a greatly unpleasant experience doesn’t surprise me in the least—such a technique would have to be unpleasant. 2. I’ve been on the fence as to whether waterboarding is torture or not, leaning toward “it is”. This stunt actually pushed me to start leaning the other way. It seems to simply create panic in the brain for a few seconds, and then it’s over. Also, if people can go through it dozens of times, with no scars or long-term effects, doesn’t that argue for the “not-torture” conclusion? Let’s move to Orwell’s Room 101. The protaganist is terrified of rats. In order to get him to straighten out, they place a large cage over his head with hungry rats in it, with him protected by a divider that keeps the rats on their side of the cage. The rats never get to him, but the mere thought of it, and the slightest hint of the divider being removed is enough for him to conform. So, is this torture? In the extreme case of the ticking nuclear bomb in NYC, would you advocate such a technique? I seem to being going back and forth on this one. So, how would you—on both sides—address the specific questions I’ve asked? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/157 "2009-05-24T19:43:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > 1. Leaving aside whether waterboarding is torture or not for now, and assuming it falls short of that and is “merely” an enhanced interrogation technique, it would still deliver discomfort, correct? I ask this because of the weight Mancow’s conclusion seems to be given. What criteria is he using? We see him go from absolute panic to being completely lucid and free of pain in the matter of a minute or two. The fact that an enhanced interrogation technique was a greatly unpleasant experience doesn’t surprise me in the least—such a technique would have to be unpleasant. > > 2. I’ve been on the fence as to whether waterboarding is torture or not, leaning toward “it is”. This stunt actually pushed me to start leaning the other way. It seems to simply create panic in the brain for a few seconds, and then it’s over. Also, if people can go through it dozens of times, with no scars or long-term effects, doesn’t that argue for the “not-torture” conclusion? Except that Mancow’s experience is far milder than what went on in Guantanamo. For one thing, they stopped doing it to him the instant he dropped that cow. That’s not actually how it works. When they’re doing it to suspected terrorists they do it for as long as they want, not for how long the prisoner wants. > [@magellan01](#): > > So, is this torture? In the extreme case of the ticking nuclear bomb in NYC, would you advocate such a technique? There is no ticking bomb scenario. That never happens. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/158 "2009-05-24T19:51:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Except that Mancow’s experience is far milder than what went on in Guantanamo. For one thing, they stopped doing it to him the instant he dropped that cow. That’s not actually how it works. When they’re doing it to suspected terrorists they do it for as long as they want, not for how long the prisoner wants. Uh, yeah. I and the rest of the world kinda work under that assumption. > [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > There is no ticking bomb scenario. That never happens. And that prevents you from entertaining a hypothetical? Okay. Anyone else care to actually contribute. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/159 "2009-05-24T20:00:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > 1. what is torture? Not, “what techniques qualify as torture”, but what defines it. Hell if I know. It’s hard to define, and that’s obviously part of the problem. But here’s my way of thinking: Suppose a loved one is incarcerated / detained by the U.S. government / military. Now suppose that while they’re incarcerated, they’re subjected to waterboarding, stress positions, loud music played non-stop, sleep deprivation, or cold temperatures. Which of those things would you be OK with, and which might you object to on behalf of your relative? I’ve deliberately omitted whether your loved one was justly incarcerated, or has valuable information. That’s a gray area, as I suspect it often is in reality. My feeling is that if it’s not something you would condone being done to a loved one, it shouldn’t be done to anyone else. I don’t really care if it’s According to Hoyle “torture”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/160 "2009-05-24T20:00:32Z")
> [@](#): > > …And that prevents you from entertaining a hypothetical? Okay… You’re the one who brought it into the conversation, Sparky. Presumably, because you thought it a valid and useful consideration. Do we misunderstand the subtlety? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343.md?page=9)